Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

[dub]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

It would have been better (IMO) to address this obvious issue out in the open in the movie itself. Even just leaving it as an open question would have been good. Just acknowledge it. Picard could have had a conversation with Guinan on the ship that presumably takes them back to Earth at the end of the film:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Guinan smiles and walks away. Picard looks out of the window in deep thought. Cut to exterior shot of Picard in window. A reflection of the Veridian sun is on glass. Zoom out as ships go to warp. Fade out. End credits.

[dub]

dub wrote:

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It would have been better (IMO) to address this obvious issue out in the open in the movie itself. Even just leaving it as an open question would have been good. Just acknowledge it. Picard could have had a conversation with Guinan on the ship that presumably takes them back to Earth at the end of the film:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Guinan smiles and walks away. Picard looks out of the window in deep thought. Cut to exterior shot of Picard in window. A reflection of the Veridian sun is on glass. Zoom out as ships go to warp. Fade out. End credits.

Version 2:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Kirk walks up behind them.

Kirk: "If we are, then life is a dream."

Kirk smiles. Guinan looks at Kirk and smiles. Picard looks confused and horrified. Cut to black. End credits.

[CorporalCaptain]

Allyn Gibson wrote:

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Actually, that has always been a problem with Generations. Did Picard actually leave the Nexus, or did he only imagine that he left the Nexus? The Nexus is a philosophical problem that the ancient Greeks would have jumped for joy to experience.

Well, that degree of highbrow ambiguity just isn't a trope that Star Trek ever applied previously, so I don't believe that there's any reason to assume they started doing that in GEN. It was the real Picard and the real Kirk coming back to the real Prime Universe. That's how Star Trek rolls.

It's more that as soon as you move away from that and start swimming out in the deep end of the pool, you find that there's nothing to limit how deep you go.

ETA: I like dub's version 1. But that's not really highbrow ambiguity either, because it's telling you, "Hey look, I'm being ambiguous!" So that would work in Star Trek!

[dub]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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I like dub's version 1. But that's not really highbrow ambiguity either, because it's telling you, "Hey look, I'm being ambiguous!" So that would work in Star Trek!

Eeeexactly!

[sonak]

dub wrote:

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It would have been better (IMO) to address this obvious issue out in the open in the movie itself. Even just leaving it as an open question would have been good. Just acknowledge it. Picard could have had a conversation with Guinan on the ship that presumably takes them back to Earth at the end of the film:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Guinan smiles and walks away. Picard looks out of the window in deep thought. Cut to exterior shot of Picard in window. A reflection of the Veridian sun is on glass. Zoom out as ships go to warp. Fade out. End credits.

and the top keeps spinning on the table in his ready room, too...

[Carcazoid]

King Daniel wrote:

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The problem with that being that Echo Guinan couldn't leave the Nexus, and said as much. So Echo Kirk couldn't have done so, either (should he even exist, I assumed Guinan still partly existed there only because she was forcably beamed out)

Besides, Kirk may have died twice in Generations, but he got better. Read The Return.

Then he was only mostly dead?

[Carcazoid]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

Allyn Gibson wrote:

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Actually, that has always been a problem with Generations. Did Picard actually leave the Nexus, or did he only imagine that he left the Nexus?

That would explain a lot.

[RAMA]

I was looking at The Numbers.com, and apparently some of the BO numbers have been revised, if you go by that, the top 3 pre-2009 ST movies are:

STFC: $150 million
STTMP $139 million
$STIV: $133 million

A STNG movie tops the BO. They also make more than the TOS movies overseas.

RAMA

[CorporalCaptain]

RAMA wrote:

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I was looking at The Numbers.com, and apparently some of the BO numbers have been revised, if you go by that, the top 3 pre-2009 ST movies are:

STFC: $150 million
STTMP $139 million
$STIV: $133 million

A STNG movie tops the BO. They also make more than the TOS movies overseas.

RAMA

If you're looking at http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/StarTrek.php#, those figures don't appear to be adjusted for inflation.

Comparisons of movies at different times is meaningless, if the figures aren't adjusted.

[SoM]

Lance wrote:

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From the viewpoint of a fan of TNG, we've also got the factor of the TNG series ending on the perfect note, and the four films effectively undoing the good will that All Good Things... was built on. If TNG had ended with that episode and then disappeared into reruns, I think it'd be more fondly remembered than it is by the general public.

Thing is, that's not an especially plausible scenario - IIRC, the cast were all contracted to do a S8, but they decided to latch onto the 'buzz' you mentioned and start on movies sooner. AGT was written after they knew TNG was ending as a TV show.

Probably what would have happened at the end of S8, if they decided against movies forevermore, is that rather than ending the show they would have started doing what series like ER did and began rotating the cast out. So Stewart and Spiner would probably have quit, and they may have seen another couple either go or get cut to bring in fresh blood.

Whether Voyager would ever have happened or they'd have just moved TNG to UPN is an open question, but DS9 may have suffered from writers (and later Dorn) sticking with TNG, and no Maquis if there was no Voyager.

[Dream]

It was a terrible decision by Paramount to rush "Generations" into production so it could be released a few months after the end of TNG. The actors were obviously burnt out.

They really should have delayed that movie a bit to work on the script and the effects. I still can't believe they had to nerve to reuse old Bird of Prey shops from TUC for GEN! Even AGT created new explosions and new ships like the future Enterprise D and the future Klingon Attack ships.

[AllStarEntprise]

If anyone hasn't listened to Moore and Braga's Commentary for Generations on the Blu-ray release, you should. It's hilarious. It's one long apology for screwing the pooch when it comes to the movie. Not defining the Nexus as deeply as they should, lackluster end to Kirk and the ENT-D, crafting a story about death and mortality and failing to present that as deeply as they intended and Soran's motivations. Brilliantly summed up that their reach exceeded their grasp.

First Contact was done by the same people worked on GEN. Berman, Braga and Moore, and it was amazing improvement. Surmised up what TNG needed to be as a movie for theatres: a go get'em action/adventure series with the character's the fans of the show loved and general audiences could appreciate. I think about what Pirates of the Caribbean series has done and is very popular and has survived to make numerous successful movies and more to come.

Unfortunately INS decided to take huge steps backwards and hash out a story that the audience had seen time and time again and was ultimately what doomed the franchise for films. The story of a people oppressed and victimized for their resources (usually brown people) by white people(Admiral Doughtery and Ru'afo)has be rehashed to death and is uninteresting. No one cares because we know how it ends. Something like Avatar which made 2.7 billion is theatres with the same story as INS, Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves and Fern Gully; is a different story. Avatar was a success because the story of exploitation for natural resources is third in line to the attention of the audience. Whatever resource the villains in Avatar were mining, you and audience forget about because you are so distracted by the visuals, landscape, main character's drama and the whole adventure happening on screen. The conflict over resources is just something to have a big battle at the end over. INS feels small, is presented small, and is ultimately forgettable. They couldn't even spring for brown/blue/fairy people for the ENT-E crew to save. Just a crowd of unsympathetic hippy white people who i think i saw in the DS9 season 2 episode "Paradise". A go get'em action film with a grand adventure would've been a good follow up to First Contact. To be be fair though. INS flies it just doesn't soar, and it certainly doesn't hit warp speed.

Lastly NEM I think was the last chance to get the public's attention in Trek but the damage had been done. VOY closing out it's meandering series with a whimper, and ENT launching it's first unaspiring season. NEM's biggest flaw is that it's biggest catch to audiences and fans is "come pay see the TNG crew in a movie". And that sucks. Star Trek X could've featured any story with the TNG crew and i still think it would've done poorly. They tried for a balls to the wall action film which the fans and public responded to positively in FC and the Dominion War battles, but it wasn't enough. Maybe if there wasn't a 4 year gap between INS and NEM, and maybe if NEM was a bigger picture (in the sense that we see more of Romulus outside of sets, and more of the universe the crew inhabits) there could've been a greater rewatch effect and resulted in more ticket sales. The Star Wars prequels all feel like big pictures when most of the shooting takes place on green screen. However the world of Star Wars feels so much bigger because there is so much to look at. NEM feels small by comparison to something like Episode I and II. One of the benefits i like in JJ's film. Scope and scale of the film feels large.

With a smarter producer, better allocation of resources and tighter control on screenplays that would be sure bets to make as much money as possible. I think the TNG film franchise could've flourish. Look at the James Bond series. It has 23 offiical films and spread across 50 years and they are still making them and they are still making money. While there have been a few films that haven't performed as well by Bond standards "On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Diamonds are Forever and The Man With the Golden Gun" they weren't complete failures. Look at the Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan eras. With films like "Moonraker, Octopussy, A View To a Kill, Tomorrow Never Dies and Die Another Day" all these films have issues in one way or another but the producers filled them and marketed them with things they know the audience liked and wanted to see. Moonraker is an obvious attempt to cash in on the Star Wars craze in the late 70's but it made the most money in the franchise until 1995 when Goldeneye was released. Die Another Day is way over the top but it's filled with all the tropes and flashy things audiences at the time wanted to see.and before Casino Royale in 2006 Die Another was the highest grossing Bond film. What I'm trying to say is doing the "right thing" (Rick Berman) : keeping the franchise as close to the original vision of the show and Roddenberry's ideas, is not always "smart thing" (JJ Abrams and Bond producers) : making your films the biggest money makers you possibly can.

[Lance]

All long-running franchises depend on refreshing and renewal. That's the true success story of James Bond (and Dr Who). NEM takes definite steps towards that in it's script, but is arguably too little too late. If INS had been advertised as "A Generation's Final Journey...", and this had been followed up by Star Trek X establishing a brand new crew for the future... well, how that would have played out is anyone's guess. I do know that as a finale NEM is a disappointment compared to AGT. AGT feels like a true finale, NEM is just disappointingly limp. NEM brings back Guinnan and Wesley Crusher for glorified cameos. I'd like to have seen a 'final' movie of some sort that incorporates them into the plot, ties up the loose ends, and strives to bring in a fresh set of faces to replaced the tired worn-out ones. Say what some might about the deleted scene from NEM introducing the new XO of the Enterprise, but it's surprising how much it hints at a fresh outlook. A bit more restructuring like that (maybe even replacing Picard?) couldn't have hurt.

[sonak]

Lance wrote:

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All long-running franchises depend on refreshing and renewal. That's the true success story of James Bond (and Dr Who). NEM takes definite steps towards that in it's script, but is arguably too little too late. If INS had been advertised as "A Generation's Final Journey...", and this had been followed up by Star Trek X establishing a brand new crew for the future... well, how that would have played out is anyone's guess. I do know that as a finale NEM is a disappointment compared to AGT. AGT feels like a true finale, NEM is just disappointingly limp. NEM brings back Guinnan and Wesley Crusher for glorified cameos. I'd like to have seen a 'final' movie of some sort that incorporates them into the plot, ties up the loose ends, and strives to bring in a fresh set of faces to replaced the tired worn-out ones. Say what some might about the deleted scene from NEM introducing the new XO of the Enterprise, but it's surprising how much it hints at a fresh outlook. A bit more restructuring like that (maybe even replacing Picard?) couldn't have hurt.

a new crew introduced for a new TNG picture? I don't think that would have worked. INS did poorly enough on its own, I don't think they would have gone that route.

[RAMA]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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If you're looking at http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/StarTrek.php#, those figures don't appear to be adjusted for inflation.

Comparisons of movies at different times is meaningless, if the figures aren't adjusted.

I of course realize those are not adjusted but absolute figures are what most people use to compare films. STFC still made the most in absolute dollars for any of the movies before ST09. ST09 and STTMP sold the most tickets. There are often inaccuracies with using the adjusted numbers based on what method used to adjust, and international sales were less accurate back in the 70s and 80s and figuring out the ticket prices is even more problematic.

I'm still trying to figure out why STTMP's original take of $175 million has been readjusted from almost every source I see to $139 million.

RAMA