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Old March 14 2013, 02:42 PM   #136
blssdwlf
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Timo wrote: View Post
The existence of the Delta Vega station could be taken as evidence of a special effort to build a chain of bases in support of the very mission of exploring the "edge", though: bigger bases closer to home, but automated stations and supply stashes along the route Kirk took and subsequent expeditions would frequent. It's not as if the heroes are surprised by the fact that they are mere light-days away from civilization, after all.
Or Delta Vega wasn't an Earth base in Kirk's log and thus not considered civilization or a likely destination given their emergency situation. Or it might belong to another friendly or neutral power of the Federation but not Earth-owned. Kirk already pointed out the risk that if they couldn't get the parts to repair the ship they would be stuck there for twenty years.

Timo wrote: View Post
And what about cases like being chased by the planet killer from "The Doomsday Machine"? If they had Slower-Than-Light impulse engines they wouldn't have a chance being chased by the machine.
The episode was quite clear on the monster being extremely clumsy: even a completely crippled starship could outrun it.
That isn't quite accurate. The "completely crippled" Constellation at max one-third impulse power with Kirk and Scotty had no chance to outrun it. Enterprise with warp engines can outrun it (but just barely) in system. Enterprise with impulse power only but not "completely crippled" (see "Wrath of Khan" or compare to Constellation) could also barely stay ahead but had to deal with the possibility of running out of fuel.

The Doomsday Machine was said in the episode to be generally faster (capable of gaining on the Enterprise) but less maneuverable than the Enterprise. Imagine a large fast car having to make wide turns trying to catch a smaller, slightly slower car that can turn sharper and has better acceleration/deceleration.
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Old March 14 2013, 07:13 PM   #137
Ronald Held
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

IDF deals with accelerations, and time dilation occurs at a velocity relative to the external observer. I think there will be those effects.
How likely is it that some tampering of the undamaged records in the Valiant's computer was done by the enhanced ESPer before the ship exploded.
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Old March 14 2013, 10:35 PM   #138
Robert Comsol
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

I don't know whether I have anything constructive to add to the debate, but I'll give it a try.

SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction. Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here. I'm not getting it all. The tapes are pretty badly burned. Sounds like the ship had encountered some unknown force. Now, orders, counter orders, repeated urgent requests for information from the ship's computer records for anything concerning ESP in human beings.

I agree that "magnetic storm" could either be a colloquialism form "wormhole" or by the time of TOS they prefer the term "magnetic storm" over "wormhole" (regardless what the spin-offs say).

From the dialogue I take it that the "storm" and the energy barrier are two separate entities.

Where it really gets messy is the Enterprise's impulse speed and the colossal coincidence that Delta Vega is within their reach.

SPOCK: Recommendation one. There's a planet a few light days away from here. Delta Vega. It has a lithium cracking station. We may be able to adapt some of its power packs to our engines.

So how much time passed between their encounter of the energy barrier and their arrival at Delta Vega? If it's just a few days (Mitchell is getting stronger by the minute...), then the Enterprise must have been able to almost reach light speed with its impulse engines. Can't say I like this idea (especially that with the space warp ability gone the ship probably won't intake enough space hydrogen for fuel ).

As for time dilation issues, maybe this line from "the Cage" is a hint:

SURVIVOR: Is Earth all right?
PIKE: The same old Earth, and you'll see it very soon.
TYLER: And you won't believe how fast you can get back. Well the time barrier's been broken. Our new ships can...
(He's struck dumb by the sight of a lovely young woman)

...yes, go ahead. Can...? Can do what? Darn, just as it really got interesting he got distracted

Bob
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Old March 14 2013, 11:16 PM   #139
Warped9
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

^^ You've hit on something that I feel has long been ignored from "The Cage" (and remember that the scene you're referencing was also seen in "The Menagerie" so it cannot be discounted as never having happened) and something that was reinforced later in TOS: the idea that not too long before the Pike and Kirk era star flight technology was distinctly slower and more crude. Yeah, one could argue it being a matter of degrees, but the subtext in all of it flies in contradiction of what they did in ENT.

Here's a little something I worked out a few years ago for a project I have going off-and-on. I used the formula to calculate the relativistic time dilation effect for various speeds. In this example I used Alpha Centauri as the target destination, but the same formula could be used for any target star. From this you can get a clearer idea of what a crew would experience time dilation at different speeds.



To show it onscreen you could have two clocks. One clock would be set to show the passage of time for the crew and it would look completely normal. The other clock would be set to illustrate what was happening in the objective universe outside of the ship and this clock would be racing crazily until you slowed down and it would gradually slow to eventually be in synch with the first clock.

Now more to the issue at hand. For the Enterprise to get to Delta Vega within a few days it will have to accelerate to at least .99999c (99.999% of light) assuming the destination is within about five light years. Even so it would mean some years will have passed objectively. The simple fact is even if you can get to 99.999% of light it still takes a objectively finite amount of time to cross that distance.

Another wrinkle is that Spock say Delta Vega is only a few light days away. A light day isn't very far. If we use the idea of five days then it's only about 80.352 billion miles or 864 AU. If my math is right then that's a bit more than 1/70th of a light year. You might as well say Delta Vega is just outside the hull and you can toss stones at it in terms of astronomical distances.

So the question: is Spock referring to distance or the time to travel that distance? Actually a light year or a light day is referring to both time and distance, but I suspect Spock is using the term in as such as to give the viewers a spacey way of expressing the time it takes to travel to Delta Vega. In that context then it more strongly supports the idea that Delta Vega could be within five light years away and they can get there under impulse albeit pushing it to 99.99% of light. But that doesn't get you away from the relativistic problem: they'll get to Delta Vega and lose a few years in the process. Well, actually they don't lose those years themselves because they'll age only a few days, but anyone else back home will think the Enterprise disappeared for a few years.

No matter how you cut it our heroes are in a pickle.

Now there could be a loop hole. If the Enterprise's impulse engines can generate a subspace field and allow them to get a bit faster than Warp 1 then they can make it to Delta Vega in a few days and be spared any time dilation effects. The one wrinkle to that is Warp 1 can't be = to the speed of light, something I've long suspected in TOS.
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Old March 15 2013, 01:48 AM   #140
blssdwlf
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Warped9 wrote: View Post

Now there could be a loop hole. If the Enterprise's impulse engines can generate a subspace field and allow them to get a bit faster than Warp 1 then they can make it to Delta Vega in a few days and be spared any time dilation effects. The one wrinkle to that is Warp 1 can't be = to the speed of light, something I've long suspected in TOS.
I'm pretty sure also that Warp 1 is not = to the speed of light. It probably is dependent on what is nearby. A planet or a star would drop Warp 1 to well below light speed. Out between star systems, Warp 1 could be many, many times the speed of light.

Looking back at the episode "WNMHGB"...
  • There is a 0.2 stardate difference from when they head back to an Earth base and when they arrive at Delta Vega. They've traveled a "few light days from here".
  • There is also a 0.2 stardate difference from when they arrived on Delta Vega to when the ship's engines are repaired AND Mitchell has been "like that for hours now".
  • If the Enterprise was a "few light days from" Delta Vega then at sublight speeds (without time dilation) they'd have to take more than a few days to get there.
But a 0.2 stardate difference appears to be only a few hours or less than a day when they are planetside. That would suggest that it only took a few hours or less than a day on the Enterprise to arrive at Delta Vega and that would be FTL speeds (if no time dilation was involved).

If we were to throw time dilation in, then we can use guess times based on the dialogue. We could say the observed flight time was 72 hours and the shipboard flight time only 6 hours. That works out to be around 0.986 speed of light for the trip to Delta Vega. Certainly doable with their technology speed-wise but again, their is a dearth of examples of time dilation used for flight and it seems to run counter to the stardate comparisons between stationary and traveling times, IMHO.

Also, another problem with time dilation at that speed, a trip to the nearest Earth base is still likely 19,000 light years away and even at 0.9999c, thousands of years would've passed for the folks at the Earth base. It might not even be there when they arrive!

The only way "WNMHGB"'s scenario would work out is if she had impulse engines capable of eventually getting up to FTL speeds, IMO.
Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship's space warp ability gone. Earth bases which were only days away are now years in the distance. Our overriding question now is what destroyed the Valiant? They lived through the barrier, just as we have. What happened to them after that?
...
KIRK: Set course for Delta Vega.
...
Star date 1313.1. We're now approaching Delta Vega. Course set for a standard orbit. This planet, completely uninhabited, is slightly smaller than Earth. Desolate, but rich in crystal and minerals. Kelso's task, transport down with a repair party, try to regenerate the main engines, save the ship. Our task, transport down a man I've known for fifteen years, and if we're successful, maroon him there.
...
Captain's log, Star date 1313.3. Note commendations on Lieutenant Kelso and the engineering staff. In orbit above us, the engines of the Enterprise are almost fully regenerated. Balance of the landing party is being transported back up. Mitchell, whatever he's become, keeps changing, growing stronger by the minute.
[Delta Vega Brig]
DEHNER: He's been like that for hours now.

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Old March 15 2013, 04:35 PM   #141
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Timo wrote: View Post
It's very difficult for me to reconcile the idea of a dish that aims in a particular direction with the idea that deflector beams can be directed in any direction with equal ease.
It would help if we knew what a deflector beam actually does. But, just like the Bussard collector, this technology has one definition in noncanon, backstage books but none in the actual episodes or movies. All we ever see or hear it do is "alternate modes" or "special adaptations", with nary a hint to what its normal mode of operation would be.
I don't think that's true. In the wormhole segment of TMP, Ilia tries to use navigational deflectors to keep the asteroid from hitting the ship, but they're inoperative. That would seem to be their normal function, established canonically.

---

I'm going to call bullshit on the Enterprise being unable to blast out of orbit on Delta Vega if their attempt to regenerate the warp drive fails. If they can make it to bases that are yeeeeaaarrsss away, they can blast out of orbit of one freakin' planet and escape its star system. If Delta Vega would trap them like that, then it's going to be the skeleton of Kirk's great-great-great-...-great-granddaughter who makes it to the nearest starbase.
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Old March 15 2013, 07:57 PM   #142
Ronald Held
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Maybe the intent is without warp drive Mitchell might attach them while escaping the Delta Vega system?
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Old March 15 2013, 08:22 PM   #143
Warped9
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

The thing is as with many adventure stories the plot is often what defines what can and cannot be. It's little different then telling superhero stories and depicting his abilities in an inconsisten manner.

If the Enterprise can still get to Delta Vega in a few days then it should have enough power to break orbit if need be. The same thing happens in "Mudd's Women" the the ship is dangerously low on power because of the burnt out dilithium crystals. What, no spares?

It's a plot device to create tension. A writer crafting a novel might think of his way out of this by finding a way to create peril in a way that's consistent with the ship's abilities. But on television and in many films they create a sense of peril where none should exist if they stayed consistent with what has already been established.

To me this speaks of the writers not yet really knowing the parameters of what the ship can and cannot do and/or they thought none of the viewers would notice such an inconsistency.
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Old March 15 2013, 08:54 PM   #144
Timo
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

I don't think that's true. In the wormhole segment of TMP, Ilia tries to use navigational deflectors to keep the asteroid from hitting the ship, but they're inoperative. That would seem to be their normal function, established canonically.
I'm referring specifically to the navigational deflector beam and dish, which might be related technologies but might not be directly involved in the act of deflecting. The plural term "navigational deflectors" is used several times in Trek, and e.g. seems to provide wide-angle protection against the weapons of the Montagues and the Capulets in "The Outrageous Okona". That's fine and well - "navigational deflectors" would simply be the same as all other deflectors, protecting the ship from all directions, only they'd be the weakest variant.

The TNG Tech Manual also makes a distinction between the deflectors and the deflection beam. The former plays a canonical role in all-around protection; the role of the latter is not clarified on screen.

I'm going to call bullshit on the Enterprise being unable to blast out of orbit on Delta Vega if their attempt to regenerate the warp drive fails.
Good point, and an excellent chance to bullshit our way out of the jam, too.

Ahem, let's see... Kirk says that bit in two pieces: "We'll be trapped in orbit here" and "We haven't enough power to blast back out". The two need not be literally connected: if the ship won't have enough power to reach civilization, then she's going to be trapped somewhere, and "in orbit here" is as good an option as any.

That is, the act of entering orbit may not be the one that traps the ship, and the trapping itself does not consist of the inability to break out of orbit. The act of fiddling with the power packs may be the dubious step, and the results will move the next-nearest base to the "centuries away" category, meaning the crew could just as well spend the rest of their lives on the orbit of the cracking plant planet.

The same thing happens in "Mudd's Women" the the ship is dangerously low on power because of the burnt out dilithium crystals. What, no spares?
I don't see the objection. The plot already featured our heroes exhausting their cache of spares, after all.

Sure, Scotty seems to think it unusual that only a single crystal is on line towards the end. But in the teaser, the crystals are being used one by one, as if one were the spare for the previous one. Taken in the wider context, it would seem that somewhere between one and four crystals are needed for moving the ship, and all the rest are spares. That's details, though: the episode itself goes to the necessary effort to establish that spares are gone.

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Old March 15 2013, 09:02 PM   #145
Warped9
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

^^ Considering what we later see the ship go through it still sounds weak.
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Old March 15 2013, 09:12 PM   #146
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Timo wrote: View Post
The act of fiddling with the power packs may be the dubious step
Yeah, OK, that would work, with the appropriate tweak of dialog: "We'll be trapped in orbit there, if Scotty breaks my effing ship."
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Old March 16 2013, 05:31 AM   #147
blssdwlf
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I can reach into my bag of tricks and postulate that there are different classes of navigational deflector systems. Perhaps there is a low power system that works well enough for certain classes of maneuvers that doesn't require a dish?
Or what if standard navigational deflectors (note plural) require no main dish and all maneuvers are available to the ship?

Ships with a giant sensor dish would have a deflector built into it to help "tunnel a sensor path" for better long range resolution. The side benefit is that you get an additional multi-purpose deflector for pushing moons out of the way

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
That would mean that the heavy cruiser connie can just plain do more, such as:

The Paradise Syndrome uses a deflector beam from the Enterprise. IIRC, the original effects didn't show where the beam came out of, but the remastered effects have it coming out of the dish.

remastered FX: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...romehd0510.jpg
Hmm. The beam doesn't appear to be coming from the dish (or at least not from the center of it). The beam looks like it is originating from the port side from a point on the engineering hull.
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Old March 16 2013, 05:39 AM   #148
blssdwlf
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
If they can make it to bases that are yeeeeaaarrsss away, they can blast out of orbit of one freakin' planet and escape its star system. If Delta Vega would trap them like that, then it's going to be the skeleton of Kirk's great-great-great-...-great-granddaughter who makes it to the nearest starbase.
A couple of things:

If low orbit can slow a ship at warp speed down to a few hundred km/s why couldn't the weaker impulse engines also have a hard time powering away requiring more power to fight the gravity or magnetic pull than flying in deep space.

They were in a hurry to get rid of Mitchell - perhaps they needed to expend more fuel than intended to accelerate and decelerate to Delta Vega in as short a period of time instead of taking a more economical acceleration profile.
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Old March 16 2013, 05:45 AM   #149
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Were talking about a starship's impulse engines, not some contemporary chemical fuel rocket. If you've got engines with the power to push a 190,000 metric ton ship to high percentages of light than those engines can easily push you out of orbit and out of the system. What's even more amazing is how powerful those engines are given their comparatively small size in relation to the rest of the ship.
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Old March 16 2013, 06:01 AM   #150
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I can reach into my bag of tricks and postulate that there are different classes of navigational deflector systems. Perhaps there is a low power system that works well enough for certain classes of maneuvers that doesn't require a dish?
Or what if standard navigational deflectors (note plural) require no main dish and all maneuvers are available to the ship?

Ships with a giant sensor dish would have a deflector built into it to help "tunnel a sensor path" for better long range resolution. The side benefit is that you get an additional multi-purpose deflector for pushing moons out of the way

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
That would mean that the heavy cruiser connie can just plain do more, such as:

The Paradise Syndrome uses a deflector beam from the Enterprise. IIRC, the original effects didn't show where the beam came out of, but the remastered effects have it coming out of the dish.

remastered FX: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...romehd0510.jpg
Hmm. The beam doesn't appear to be coming from the dish (or at least not from the center of it). The beam looks like it is originating from the port side from a point on the engineering hull.
I'm not going to comment further on the quality of the remastered effects, except to say that I find that the idea of a train wreck on top of another train wreck doesn't begin to describe how ill conceived a lot, if not most, of the new FX shots were, especially the ones involving the Enterprise.

Perhaps they refer to navigational deflectors in the plural routinely, because the idea is that when the system is operating, it's always continuously targeting multiple objects simultaneously.

But, multiple simultaneous beams need not imply multiple emitters. (ETA: This could be especially true on smaller craft, such as the Aurora, as well as shuttlecraft. To travel at warp, I'd expect even a shuttlecraft to need at least basic navigational deflectors. Photon torpedoes on the other hand, not as much, anyway.)

In real life, a transmitter dish routinely transmits modulated output that expresses the mathematical combination of multiple signals.

If the focal properties of the deflector dish can be dynamically adjusted just by controlling field parameters, I don't see any reason why a single deflector dish couldn't serve as a multiplexer for multiple simultaneous navigational deflector beams, by essentially emitting a modulated signal. (ETA: I believe this would be consistent with the application of the dish in TNG: The Loss, where they use the dish to reflect a whole set of frequencies simultaneously, to simulate the signature of a cosmic string fragment.)

Now, I'm not saying that all navigational deflector beams have to come from the dish; I think I've already made that clear. But I think it's also clear that the main dish is the most powerful emitter. Sending a Miranda-type ship to deal with the out of control asteroid in The Paradise Syndrome should be totally inappropriate, if you see what I mean. (ETA: And we seem to completely agree on this, at least.)

ETA: To clarify what I meant by some maneuvers being unavailable, perhaps the Miranda-class has to change course somewhat more often than a connie, say to evade high momentum/heavy debris that it cannot deflect in time at warp speed, but the situations when those types of course changes are needed occur only rarely. Additionally, maybe it's the number of independent targets that can be deflected in time that's smaller on the Miranda's, or maybe it's a combination of all that. That sort of thing would mean that not giving Miranda's a dish could be justified by a cost-benefit analysis, especially under the consideration of the types of expected missions, including whether they involve going into uncharted space. Whereas on the other hand, when going to uncharted space, it might be deemed much more essential not to require that the cruiser must always have a wide berth from unexpected heavy objects or clusters of smaller objects, etc.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Were talking about a starship's impulse engines, not some contemporary chemical fuel rocket. If you've got engines with the power to push a 190,000 metric ton ship to high percentages of light than those engines can easily push you out of orbit and out of the system. What's even more amazing is how powerful those engines are given their comparatively small size in relation to the rest of the ship.
Exactly.

I think Timo's idea, which to me requires that we should tweak Kirk's dialog to mean that he's worried about the recharging effort totally shorting out the ship, is the right call.
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