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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 15 2013, 01:52 AM   #16
Christopher
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
So when the article says "But the real finds involved lost scenes that were filmed but never released," I'm thinking that this "filmed but not released" scene was from The Wrath of Khan, not from "Space Seed." I think someone simply misunderstood--either Mr. Ingram or T'Bonz. (Maybe the unused scene was unused in both productions--but I think it's probably referring to just TWOK.)
That makes sense. You're probably right.
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Old March 15 2013, 01:52 AM   #17
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
But it was filmed, and it is in the movie.
Well. not really. It cuts from Bones' "Exactly. Happy Birthday," to Kirk's "I don't know what to say." The "teaching Kirk how to use the glasses" line wasn't used. It's this line that's missing in TWOK. But someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Was that part of the scene shot? There are some strange transitions in tone in Khan that I've attributed to directing quirks that might just be snippets of dialogue cut out, and one of those weird timing things happens around that point in the scene in Kirk's apartment.
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Old March 15 2013, 06:00 AM   #18
T'Bonz
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
So when the article says "But the real finds involved lost scenes that were filmed but never released," I'm thinking that this "filmed but not released" scene was from The Wrath of Khan, not from "Space Seed." I think someone simply misunderstood--either Mr. Ingram or T'Bonz. (Maybe the unused scene was unused in both productions--but I think it's probably referring to just TWOK.)
It's not my error. And I've not seen the proof, so I can't tell how accurate the reporter was. However, one of three things seems to have happened:

- The WOK glasses scene is based on an old unused scene from Space Seed (perhaps the stuff was consulted when WOK was being produced)

- The reporter got it wrong and it's from WOK.

- The Tenutos mistook a scene from WOK for one from Space Seed.

Wish I knew the answer!
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Old March 15 2013, 10:52 AM   #19
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

...Of course, thematically "Space Seed" could use a scene or two where the inferiority of Kirk's genes is highlighted. So what if he's nearsighted - he can still defeat a physically superior specimen with his hands tied behind his back, because, well, he's the good guy and fights with a pure heart! (Unless that's genetically inferior, too, and has been replaced by a machine... But apparently that scene was among the ones cut, and had to wait for two decades to see use. )

But even then, it would be odd that Kirk would have to receive tutoring on the use of glasses. Perhaps in an ideal world, "Space Seed" would have launched a story arc of sorts where Kirk's age gradually begins to show, Shatner ceases to wear the wig, etc...

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Old March 15 2013, 05:02 PM   #20
A beaker full of death
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

Timo wrote: View Post
... Shatner ceases to wear the wig, etc...
Wouldn't happen - Shatner did doff the wig for The Deadly Years, but he's very self-conscious about his hair.

When filming the criminally ignored Never Say Never Again, Connery wanted the play the ageing Bond with his own balding pate, but was ordered back into his wig one more time.
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Old March 15 2013, 05:31 PM   #21
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

Timo wrote: View Post
But even then, it would be odd that Kirk would have to receive tutoring on the use of glasses. Perhaps in an ideal world, "Space Seed" would have launched a story arc of sorts where Kirk's age gradually begins to show, Shatner ceases to wear the wig, etc...
Where on earth do you come up with this unfettered shite?
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Old March 15 2013, 05:42 PM   #22
Marsden
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
The eyeglasses scene doesn't make sense.

I can buy Kirk questioning their presence in his 23rd century (where vision problems don't require mechanical eyewear).
I can buy the fact that eyeglasses are a rare sight in everyday life in Kirk's time.

But I don't buy Kirk needing McCoy to explain how they function. Certainly Kirk is vaguely familiar with photos of people from history, and there are millions of such photos of people wearing eyeglasses. Kirk should know what those things are, how they were worn. It shouldn't be a mindboggler for Kirk.

Actually, they hadn't established it as 23rd century at the time and dialogue suggests the 22nd century. Which actually strengthens your point, being only 200 years rather than 300 years removed, but just mentioning that 23rd century was not established until WOK, a long time after Space Seed.

Anyone that idolizes Abraham Lincoln would certainly know what glasses are for and how to use them, furthermore anyone who knows about the shoot out at the O K corral in Tombstone would know about them.
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Old March 15 2013, 06:01 PM   #23
Grant
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

The scene with the glasses IS restored in the director's cut--including McCoy explaining that the odd looking things are anchient glasses.

It does NOT cut away between the lines mentioned in the director's cut---the scene is extended.

And someone clearly has confused the TWOK script with the Space Seed script.

It was Meyers idea to introduce the whole "these people are aging" theme in the movie and I'm pretty sure he didn't rumage cut scenes from the original episode to come up with that.
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Old March 15 2013, 06:02 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

Let's remember that Kirk's historical knowledge seems to be very narrow: 19th century United States, exclusively. He's lost at sea in early 20th let alone late 20th century United States, and has never demonstrated knowledge of other geographic areas of Earth in his own era let alone any historical ones.

This would be understandable if Kirk lives in the here and now, and has studied a very specific incident of "ancient" history plus its immediate surroundings as a hobby. Perhaps he knows about gunslingers because he's a fan of Lincoln, or vice versa.

Now, had TOS indeed taken place at one of the "alternate" timepoints offered - a few more centuries in the future, from where we're looking - his narrow focus would probably mean he would not know about spectacles or lightbulbs or typewriters, as these would be quite peripheral to his interests. And he'd know basically nothing about tommy-guns or cell phones, as that stretch of history would never have been his hobby, yet it would have been such distant past that not even his granddaddy would ever have told him stories or shown him pictures.

It's the mere 250-year gap between the last spectacles we see and Kirk's days that makes it all so difficult to swallow. But perhaps people in the future are not particularly history-conscious overall? I mean, we might all plausibly have seen photographs of the walking aids polio victims had to wear, but in general those are far outside our experience, and we'd certainly need instructions to make use of those.

In the end, it's just as well that this is idle speculation and the news turned out to be false. But Kirk should still never be mistaken for somebody who knows his Earth history!

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Old March 15 2013, 06:14 PM   #25
Grant
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

The theory was that although Kirk would recognize goggles, or protective eyewear or even sunshades---he wouldn't easily recognize the small, spindly Fraklin 'half-glassess' readily.

Of course, if he was alone he would have examined them and figured it out. But seeing as how they were a gift and McCoy was standing right there, he just says, "What is it?"


Not a mind blowing leap for such momentary confusion, IMO.

And yeah folks the ABC/Director's cut that includes the extended dialogue has been seen since 1982---you might want to check it out!
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Old March 15 2013, 07:58 PM   #26
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

Grant wrote: View Post
And yeah folks the ABC/Director's cut that includes the extended dialogue has been seen since 1982---you might want to check it out!
If my memory serves me correctly, the "look over the top of the lenses" line was actually not in the special, longer ABC cut of the movie first broacast in 1985. I don't think that particular line of dialogue shows up until the 2002 "Director's Cut" DVD. It's possible that the Tenutos never new that, after twenty years, the "filmed but never released" scene actually had finally been released.

"Gentlemen, we're debating in a vacuum. Let's go get some answers."
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Old March 15 2013, 08:06 PM   #27
Grant
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
And yeah folks the ABC/Director's cut that includes the extended dialogue has been seen since 1982---you might want to check it out!
If my memory serves me correctly, the "look over the top of the lenses" line was actually not in the special, longer ABC cut of the movie first broacast in 1985. I don't think that particular line of dialogue shows up until the 2002 "Director's Cut" DVD. It's possible that the Tenutos never new that, after twenty years, the "filmed but never released" scene actually had finally been released.

"Gentlemen, we're debating in a vacuum. Let's go get some answers."
It's a little complicated...

There are 3 versions of the glasses scene......

1. the theatrical (Kirk knows what they are)
2. the ABC/DC (Kirk asks and Mccoy tells him)
3. an even longer version I saw in the rough cut 'workprint' they hace at UCLA film school in LA.

In that version Kirk is a little unsure of how to use the glassess and McCoy tells him to look down to read and look over the top to see normally.

So it was shot in it's entirety and cut 3 different ways.
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Old March 15 2013, 08:47 PM   #28
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

The teaching-Kirk-about-the-glasses thing is like the bit in "Shore Leave" when Sulu somehow thinks it necessary to explain how a gun works. "It fires lead pellets propelled by expanding gases from a chemical explosion." It's bad writing -- a cheap way of saying "Hey, this is the future!"

Does a modern archery hobbyist have to explain how the flexible bow stores potential energy, which becomes kinetic energy propelling the arrow forward when the bowstring is released?

EDIT: After reading some of the preceding posts, I do see how Kirk might possibly be a bit unsure about how to use the antique-style half-spectacles.

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Timo wrote: View Post
... Shatner ceases to wear the wig, etc...
Wouldn't happen - Shatner did doff the wig for The Deadly Years, but he's very self-conscious about his hair.
They'll take Shatner's toup when they pry it from his cold, dead scalp!
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Old March 15 2013, 09:54 PM   #29
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

Grant wrote: View Post
The theory was that although Kirk would recognize goggles, or protective eyewear or even sunshades---he wouldn't easily recognize the small, spindly Fraklin 'half-glassess' readily.

Of course, if he was alone he would have examined them and figured it out. But seeing as how they were a gift and McCoy was standing right there, he just says, "What is it?"


Not a mind blowing leap for such momentary confusion, IMO.

And yeah folks the ABC/Director's cut that includes the extended dialogue has been seen since 1982---you might want to check it out!
Yeah, he'd have figured it out, but the script calls Romulan ale an INSTANT DRUNK, so maybe Kirk was already a bit addled when he saw the glasses. And then, there is a knack to wearing and using reading glasses properly for the first time.

I always thought that while the glasses were a nice antique, they were probably a gag gift or given to make a point. I doubt McCoy really meant for Kirk to ever wear them. I think the glasses were McCoy's not so subtle way of broaching the subject of Kirk letting himself grow old rather than getting back into the action.

Also for what it's worth, what happens to all the other farsighted people allergic to Retinax V if no one wears glasses in the 23rd century? Do they stay farsighted? There must be other ways of correcting their vision, like a form of 23rd century laser correction surgery.
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Old March 16 2013, 02:27 AM   #30
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Re: Space Seed Lost Scenes

Timo wrote: View Post
It's the mere 250-year gap between the last spectacles we see and Kirk's days that makes it all so difficult to swallow.
In "The Cage," set in 2254, we see a transporter technician wearing horn-rimmed glasses that would not have looked too out-of-place in 1964.

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