Spock's the best 1st Officer in Starfleet?

[golddragon71]

Forgive me for going a little OT here on my first post but when I read this I had to address it.

"It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today."

I never liked that comment by Janeway as I felt that it showed how little she knew about Kirk and Co.
Kirk's primary concern was upholding the spirit of the Prime Directive over the literal Letter on the page.
Example: A Private Little War. For all intents and purposes the Prime Directive didn't apply anymore because the Klingons (who were not under any such constraint) had already started interfering in the normal developments of the planet and it's inhabitants. if anything, Kirk, despite McCoy's misgivings, was trying to restore the planet's normal development.
Many of the other instances of "violating the PD" are similar. Either, the Prime Directive was already Violated by an outside party or the Planet had been tainted prior to the Prime Directive going into full effect. (i.e.: "A Piece of the Action")

[Timo]

I never liked that comment by Janeway as I felt that it showed how little she knew about Kirk and Co.

I rather liked it for that very thing. Kirk and pals are history by Janeway's time, after all.

Kirk's primary concern was upholding the spirit of the Prime Directive over the literal Letter on the page.

Dunno - when did Kirk hold even the spirit of the PD? He never seemed to think it a bad idea to tell the natives what was going on in the wider universe, except when hiding and infiltrating was the tactical point of the whole exercise ("Bread and Circuses"). For him, PD seemed to mean "Do not play God to primitives unless you really mean it", which is very different from the TNG era version where native cultures would crash and burn if the heroes revealed the existence of space travel, humans, or toothpicks to them.

Interestingly, Spock basically never voiced concerns about interference - it was Kirk's own conscience holding him back, on a rare occasion. Very different from either TNG or ENT where "outsiders" told the hero captain what was allowed and what was not.

Timo Saloniemi

[Marsden]

Another thing about Janeway's statement is something I found on all three next generation set shows. They seem insufferably self righteous and self important in their attitudes. They look down on 20th century culture whenever it's mentioned, at least it's consistent that she would look down on 23rd century events as well.

I think Captain Kirk seemed to be concerned with the Prime Directive, but he didn't feel enslaved by it. It seemed to be a rule that said don't ruin the lives of people he met. If he thought their lives were already bad, then he acted against what the 24th century strict intrepretation would later be, but not against his own interpretation.

Landru had to be eliminated, the people were in a weird stagnant culture. Vaal, too.

No one was too interested in the Prime Directive when the Klingons moved on Organia.

The Providers on Triskelion weren't really doing too much for their people and Kirk tried to better the situation, plus I'm not sure if they would even fall under the PD.

The Omega Glory had clear violation of the PD, by Cpt. Tracey, not Kirk.

Kirk and crew tried to avoid all contact with Miramanee's people in Paradise Syndrome, but they were there in the people's best interest, deflecting the asteroid. In the clenched anus 24th century, the PD would say the best thing to do is let the asteroid kill them all.

When did Kirk really violate the PD? Maybe with Vaal and Landru, but that's a maybe.

[BillJ]

Marsden wrote:

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When did Kirk really violate the PD? Maybe with Vaal and Landru, but that's a maybe.

I really don't think either of those qualify as Prime Directive violations(at least by 23rd century standards). Both posed dangers to orbital traffic, Kirk tried to leave when it became obvious they weren't welcomed on Gamma Trianguli VI yet was stopped by Vaal.

Did any of the 24th century shows put their crews in a similar situation?

[Marsden]

BillJ wrote:

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I really don't think either of those qualify as Prime Directive violations(at least by 23rd century standards). Both posed dangers to orbital traffic, Kirk tried to leave when it became obvious they weren't welcomed on Gamma Trianguli VI yet was stopped by Vaal.

Did any of the 24th century shows put their crews in a similar situation?

Just to clairify my last post, I didn't think they were violations. I've heard many times in the past that Kirk was such a rule breaker, but I don' t see any evidence of it regarding the PD.

[Pavonis]

Timo wrote:

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Interestingly, Spock basically never voiced concerns about interference

Well, not exactly never. In "The Apple", we have this exchange between Spock and Kirk:

SPOCK: I am concerned, Captain. This may not be an ideal society, but it is a viable one.
KIRK: Bones was right. These people aren't living, they're existing. They don't create, they don't produce, they don't even think. They exist to service a machine.
SPOCK: If we do what it seems we must, in my opinion it will be in direct violation of the non-interference directive.

But, since Vaal was deliberately trying to destroy Enterprise, their choices were destroy Vaal or let themselves be killed.

[golddragon71]

And then there was this exchange later
Spock: Captain, I'm not at all certain we did the correct thing on Gamma Trianguli VI.
McCoy: We put those people back on a normal course of social evolution. I see nothing wrong with that.
Kirk: Well, that's a good object lesson Mr. Spock. an example of what can happen when a machine becomes too efficient, does too much work for you..
Spock: Captain, you are aware of the biblical story of Genesis...
Kirk: Yes. of course I'm aware of it. Adam and Eve tasted the Apple, and as a result, were driven out of paradise.
Spock: Precisely Captain. And in a manner of speaking, we have given the People of Vaal, the Apple, the knowledge of Good and Evil if you will, as a result of which, they too have been driven Out of Paradise.
Kirk: Doctor, do I understand him correctly? (to Spock) Are you casting Me in the role of Satan?
Spock: Not at all, Captain..."
Kirk: Is there anyone on this SHIP! whoo even REMOTELY! (circling Spock looking pointedly (pun painfully intended) at his ears and eyebrows) looks like Satan?
Spock: (uncomfortably crosses his arms and resigns) I am not aware of anyone who fits that description Captain.
Kirk: (smugly) No, Mr. Spock. I didn't think you were.

[BillJ]

Marsden wrote:

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Just to clairify my last post, I didn't think they were violations. I've heard many times in the past that Kirk was such a rule breaker, but I don' t see any evidence of it regarding the PD.

I'll use this as an opportunity to point out the great follow up DC Comics did to "The Apple" called The Return of the Serpent (issues #43-45, first run). In the three parter Kirk and Company return to Gamma Trianguli VI twenty years later.