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Old March 9 2013, 07:20 AM   #46
propita
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

I can't imagine a civil trial since, as I said, only the family really has standing to sue for wrongful death, and they're not interested. But if they were, A defense could be that, even without a DNR, the woman gave informed consent over the lack of CPR when she agreed to live there. Of course, a signed contract stating such would help with this.
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Old March 9 2013, 07:59 AM   #47
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

The nurses were constrained by policy. They looked her up on the Obama Death Panel Chart and it said she wasn't worth it.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:05 PM   #48
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
tighr wrote: View Post
Reports indicate this nurse, though licensed, was working in the capacity as an administrator, not as a health worker.
Regardless. She's a nurse. Trained in CPR as part of her job and should be duty bound to save a life that is slipping away in front of her very eyes.
I suggest you go read this before continuing to spout off without all the facts.
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Old March 11 2013, 07:14 PM   #49
Peach Wookiee
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

It's definitely a gray area, but at the same time, there was no DNR plan on record for that woman. She discussed it with her family, sure, but not with the home.
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Old March 11 2013, 07:38 PM   #50
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

It does not matter, because the home explicitly does not provide any sort of medical care whatosever.
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Old March 11 2013, 08:05 PM   #51
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

^ We're not talking about medical care, we're talking about first aid.
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Old March 11 2013, 10:04 PM   #52
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

I think that's where the gray area is. The home doesn't provide it, but at the same time, a nurse has a certain obligation to protect life. First aid isn't the same as providing round-the-clock medical attention. I think the theory that the article you provided, Robert, sheds some light on why the home might have been overly firm on the subject.
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Old March 12 2013, 03:26 AM   #53
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
It does not matter, because the home explicitly does not provide any sort of medical care whatosever.
Performing CPR is not "medical care." Were it we could all become doctors inside of a Saturday afternoon. I've three friends who've all taken classes/training to be in various levels of emergency response. A friend trained and acting as a fire-fighter, another friend who is trraining to be a fire-fighter, and another friend who acted as a fire-fighter/EMT at one point and worked as an ER tech in a local hospital. All have said that when they were taking training for these various positions they were told to perform CPR on someone until you SEE a DNR, you don't go on someone's word that one exists or that it's "what they want." You need to see the paper.

CPR may not have saved this woman, may have caused her greater injury or whatever but it's hard to know what would have happened. But performing CPR would have at least had taken her chances of dying from 100% through inaction to 99% through at least trying but it not being enough/helpful. And, as said, various laws protect a life-saving attempt from forms of liability.

This woman died because somewhere in the entire system there was a major miscommunication on either what this woman's job and position was, what could happen if something goes wrong, the wishes of the deceased, liability stances, and many, many more issues or combination of all of it.

The woman was not breathing, 911 asked the "nurse" on the phone to perform CPR. She refused and seemed unwilling and unmotivated to find someone willing to try. She also seemed un-moved by the idea that the woman will die if life-saving action was not taken. I think that's a lot to ponder on the various problems we have as a society or even as a local issue for them that this woman did not know what she could and could not and not be punished for it.

The woman may have died no matter what. But at least someone could have TRIED to save her inside those few minutes which, according to all of my friends in life-saving fields, say minutes mean EVERYTHING when someone is barely breathing.
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Old March 12 2013, 04:37 AM   #54
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Captrek wrote: View Post
We're not talking about medical care, we're talking about first aid.
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Performing CPR is not "medical care."
Well, I was on the fence about this issue before, but now that you two have convinced me with your semantic arguments that first aid and CPR don't qualify as "any sort of medical care whatsoever," as Robert said, I'm firmly in your camp.

Clearly, CPR is some form of industrial waste disposal process and has nothing to do with emergency medical care at all. Saved for future reference.
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Old March 12 2013, 05:02 AM   #55
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
CPR ... may have caused her greater injury
My eyes just kinda glazed over after reading this.
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Old March 12 2013, 11:05 PM   #56
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

If a guest was standing nearby and tried to perform CPR on her, I wonder if they would have called the bouncers to eject him for violating company rules.
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Old March 13 2013, 12:28 AM   #57
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
If a guest was standing nearby and tried to perform CPR on her, I wonder if they would have called the bouncers to eject him for violating company rules.
Really?
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Old March 13 2013, 02:30 AM   #58
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
If a guest was standing nearby and tried to perform CPR on her, I wonder if they would have called the bouncers to eject him for violating company rules.
... bouncers? Is this a nursing home or a club?

I guess we know now why the lady couldn't breathe - too much getting low low low low.
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Old March 13 2013, 12:50 PM   #59
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

I just find it horrifying that the situation even exists where someone has to do the mental calculation of "If I try to save this person's life, I may lose my job."

I'm not defending the nurse. I don't know her, and she may be a wonderful person. On the recording of the 911 call I heard, it really sounded like she didn't care at all that a woman was dying right in front of her, but I can't say.

Still, it amazes me that a nurse would be forced to consider that she might lose her livelihood and possibly harm her own ability to support her family in order to prevent another human being from dying. Someone earlier joked about death panels, but in this situation, that's exactly what the nurse has to become. Is the life of an 87 year old woman who might die anyway (and probably won't live too much longer even if she survives this incident) worth the financial risk to me and my family? I know I sound sanctimonious, but is that really where we are as a society?
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Old March 14 2013, 10:15 PM   #60
Trekker4747
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

CmdrAJD wrote: View Post
I'm not defending the nurse. I don't know her, and she may be a wonderful person. On the recording of the 911 call I heard, it really sounded like she didn't care at all that a woman was dying right in front of her, but I can't say.
Sort of how I feel.

911: "This woman will die if we don't start CPR right away."
Nurse: [blandly] "Yeah."
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