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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 12 2013, 05:08 PM   #46
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
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BillJ wrote: View Post

But what your proposing isn't what will happen to the Ba'ku, as we've seen in the S'ona. Without treatment they'd simply go back to their normal lifespan and live close to another century.
While people in the federation get to live forever, sounds kind of hypocritical.

er, no, the people in the UFP would get greatly extended lifespans. As would the Baku, if they got access to the same process. It's not hypocrisy if all the parties got the same thing from it.
No they wouldn't get access to it, Doughtery pretty much said the Ba'ku were getting squat out of this with his whole "returning them to their proper course of evolution" stuff.
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Old March 12 2013, 05:55 PM   #47
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

While people in the federation get to live forever, sounds kind of hypocritical.

er, no, the people in the UFP would get greatly extended lifespans. As would the Baku, if they got access to the same process. It's not hypocrisy if all the parties got the same thing from it.
No they wouldn't get access to it, Doughtery pretty much said the Ba'ku were getting squat out of this with his whole "returning them to their proper course of evolution" stuff.
Yup. The original plan was to move the Ba'ku without their knowledge. Their home would be stolen from them and they would ideally never even know it had happened.

Not exactly the actions of a "benevolent" galactic power.
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Old March 12 2013, 06:27 PM   #48
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

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er, no, the people in the UFP would get greatly extended lifespans. As would the Baku, if they got access to the same process. It's not hypocrisy if all the parties got the same thing from it.
No they wouldn't get access to it, Doughtery pretty much said the Ba'ku were getting squat out of this with his whole "returning them to their proper course of evolution" stuff.
Yup. The original plan was to move the Ba'ku without their knowledge. Their home would be stolen from them and they would ideally never even know it had happened.

Not exactly the actions of a "benevolent" galactic power.

I agree that the holoship deception plan was a lousy one. I should have clarified that I meant that the Baku could have had access to the particles under the scenario of a negotiation AFTER Picard discovered the true nature of the Baku. At that point deception was no longer necessary, they could have just laid out the situation and offered to share the resources with the Baku.
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Old March 12 2013, 06:29 PM   #49
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

No they wouldn't get access to it, Doughtery pretty much said the Ba'ku were getting squat out of this with his whole "returning them to their proper course of evolution" stuff.
Yup. The original plan was to move the Ba'ku without their knowledge. Their home would be stolen from them and they would ideally never even know it had happened.

Not exactly the actions of a "benevolent" galactic power.

I agree that the holoship deception plan was a lousy one. I should have clarified that I meant that the Baku could have had access to the particles under the scenario of a negotiation AFTER Picard discovered the true nature of the Baku. At that point deception was no longer necessary, they could have just laid out the situation and offered to share the resources with the Baku.
How is that at all fair compensation to the Ba'ku having to give up their immortality?

With eminent domain, you actually compensate people for what you take from them. In this case, there is no way to compensate them, because what you are taking away cannot possibly be replaced. It is a galactic power using their size and influence to bully a handful of people. It's wrong.
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Old March 12 2013, 07:49 PM   #50
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
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Yup. The original plan was to move the Ba'ku without their knowledge. Their home would be stolen from them and they would ideally never even know it had happened.

Not exactly the actions of a "benevolent" galactic power.

I agree that the holoship deception plan was a lousy one. I should have clarified that I meant that the Baku could have had access to the particles under the scenario of a negotiation AFTER Picard discovered the true nature of the Baku. At that point deception was no longer necessary, they could have just laid out the situation and offered to share the resources with the Baku.
How is that at all fair compensation to the Ba'ku having to give up their immortality?

With eminent domain, you actually compensate people for what you take from them. In this case, there is no way to compensate them, because what you are taking away cannot possibly be replaced. It is a galactic power using their size and influence to bully a handful of people. It's wrong.
Besides I still don't know why the federation couldn't just set up a science station in orbit and study the rings radiation to figure out how to duplicate it.

I mean we're talking about the people who came up with Genesis, how hard is magic youth radiation compared to making freaking planets.
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Old March 12 2013, 08:28 PM   #51
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

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Besides I still don't know why the federation couldn't just set up a science station in orbit and study the rings radiation to figure out how to duplicate it.

I mean we're talking about the people who came up with Genesis, how hard is magic youth radiation compared to making freaking planets.
Problem was that the S'ona were dying and would seem to have at least some sort of claim on the planet itself.
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Old March 12 2013, 08:56 PM   #52
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

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Problem was that the S'ona were dying
Probably becuase they were using crappy non-federation medical tech, just switch over to federation medical technology. It kept McCoy alive so it should keep them alive long enough to figure out how to make their own magic youth radiation.

As for the partial claim thing, thats a dispute they need to work out with their parents, since the federation is around they could possibly mediate it. I mean the Ba'ku didn't have a problem taking them back at the end, the Son'a seemed to be the only bitter ones there.
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Old March 12 2013, 09:02 PM   #53
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
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Problem was that the S'ona were dying
Probably becuase they were using crappy non-federation medical tech, just switch over to federation medical technology. It kept McCoy alive so it should keep them alive long enough to figure out how to make their own magic youth radiation.

As for the partial claim thing, thats a dispute they need to work out with their parents, since the federation is around they could possibly mediate it. I mean the Ba'ku didn't have a problem taking them back at the end, the Son'a seemed to be the only bitter ones there.
That part of what the Son'a told Daugherty was probably true: they didn't want to live in the middle of nowhere. They wanted the benefits of the radiation without having be stuck in the Briar Patch. They did, after all, develop the collector with that singular goal in mind. I don't think the Son'a would have come up with such an elaborate bit of kit (which must have taken many years to research and develop) without fully intending to just take the radiation and leave their parents to rot.

If the Son'a were willing to return in peace to their people, I don't see the Ba'ku telling them to get bent. Indeed, as was shown in the film itself, those who wanted to come back were welcomed with open arms.
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Old March 12 2013, 09:02 PM   #54
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Problem was that the S'ona were dying
Probably becuase they were using crappy non-federation medical tech, just switch over to federation medical technology. It kept McCoy alive so it should keep them alive long enough to figure out how to make their own magic youth radiation.
Besides that... the Son'a were aging. Big deal.

150 year old McCoy, would he force the Ba'ku of the planet just because he doesn't want to get old like everybody else?
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Old March 13 2013, 01:00 AM   #55
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

I still don't understand why the Ba'ku would be seen as unsympathetic to the movie audience just for saying "no" at the beginning of the film. Ignoring the plot necessities of slowly revealing details to the audience, of course (saying "no" at the beginning of the movie would fundamentally make this a different film). The planet is theirs, it was uninhabited, and as far as we are aware there is no claim on the planet by any other organization that predates their settlement (the ENT episode notwithstanding).
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Old March 13 2013, 03:02 AM   #56
sonak
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Problem was that the S'ona were dying
Probably becuase they were using crappy non-federation medical tech, just switch over to federation medical technology. It kept McCoy alive so it should keep them alive long enough to figure out how to make their own magic youth radiation.
Besides that... the Son'a were aging. Big deal.

150 year old McCoy, would he force the Ba'ku of the planet just because he doesn't want to get old like everybody else?

I find this argument funny. You can't have it both ways-if aging is "no big deal," then removing the Baku so they resume the normal aging process is no big deal either. If it IS a big deal, then what's happening to the Son'a is a big deal as well.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:23 PM   #57
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Probably becuase they were using crappy non-federation medical tech, just switch over to federation medical technology. It kept McCoy alive so it should keep them alive long enough to figure out how to make their own magic youth radiation.
Besides that... the Son'a were aging. Big deal.

150 year old McCoy, would he force the Ba'ku of the planet just because he doesn't want to get old like everybody else?

I find this argument funny. You can't have it both ways-if aging is "no big deal," then removing the Baku so they resume the normal aging process is no big deal either. If it IS a big deal, then what's happening to the Son'a is a big deal as well.
Federation citizens are accustomed to way of life in which death is an inevitability.

The Ba'ku have adapted their society over a few centuries to be accustomed to and comfortable with immortality.

You would destroy one culture's way of life in order to change another.
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Old March 13 2013, 09:01 PM   #58
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

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Indeed, as was shown in the film itself, those who wanted to come back were welcomed with open arms.
We only saw a single Sona paying a visit to his mother.

But who knows, maybe after interacting with the Sona elderly, the youthful Baku will themselves push for the particles to be collected so that their very own offspring will benefit from them. Parents will make sacrifices for their children that they wouldn't make for strangers.

The Ba'ku have adapted their society over a few centuries to be accustomed to and comfortable with immortality.
Ahh, so the Baku are capable of adapting their culture and society. That means they could (just as easily) adapt again.

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Old March 13 2013, 09:29 PM   #59
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Ba'ku have adapted their society over a few centuries to be accustomed to and comfortable with immortality.
Ahh, so the Baku are capable of adapting their culture and society. That means they could (just as easily) adapt again.
But why should they?
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Old March 13 2013, 10:13 PM   #60
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Re: Questions on Insurrection, on the Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Ba'ku have adapted their society over a few centuries to be accustomed to and comfortable with immortality.
Ahh, so the Baku are capable of adapting their culture and society. That means they could (just as easily) adapt again.
If it took centuries to adapt their society to an immortal life, presumably it would take the same amount of time to adapt back to a mortal lifespan of 100 years. Their methods of teaching, their artisans, their very culture requires years of study. Unfortunately, without the planet, they will not have 100 years.

You're asking them to die.
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