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Old March 11 2013, 01:39 AM   #91
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

I just did a rewatch today of WNMHGB, something that I haven't done in years. It was good to shake loose all the thoughts I had about the episode years ago.

Here's some dialog pertinent to the discussion [from http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/2.htm] interspersed with some of CorporalCaptain's (CC's) commentary:
Captain's log, Star date 1312.4. The impossible has happened. From directly ahead, we're picking up a recorded distress signal, the call letters of a vessel which has been missing for over two centuries. Did another Earth ship once probe out of the galaxy as we intend to do? What happened to it out there? Is this some warning they've left behind?
CC: The Enterprise crew don't know what the Valiant is doing out this far. I submit that the Valiant's original mission did not necessarily involve probing outside the galaxy; more below. Something happened to the Valiant on her mission—whatever that was—and she was never heard from again, until now; more below on that, too.
[...]

MITCHELL: Yore relieved, Mister Alden.
ALDEN: Acknowledged, Mister Mitchell.
KIRK: Screen on.
KELSO: Screen on, sir. Approaching galaxy edge, sir.
KIRK: Neutralise warp, Mister Mitchell. Hold this position.
MITCHELL: Neutralise warp, sir.
CC: At this moment, given the pacing, we can be sure that the Enterprise is at most only minutes from the edge of the galaxy, at her previous warp speed.
KIRK: Address intercraft.
MITCHELL: Intercraft open.
KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago.
CC: Of course, this would mean that the Valiant left on her mission even earlier. This was also established in the first captain's log of the episode.
SPOCK: The tapes are burnt out. Trying the memory banks.
KIRK: We hope to learn from the recorder what the Valiant was doing here and what destroyed the vessel. We'll move out into our probe as soon as we have those answers. All decks, stand by.
CC: Again, they have no idea what the Valiant was doing out this far.
MITCHELL: Department heads, sir. You wanted everybody on the Bridge before we left the galaxy. Jones.
CC: More confirmation, delivered economically, that we are not only about to witness the Enterprise heading for the galaxy edge but also about to witness her actually leaving the galaxy.
SMITH: The name's Smith, sir.

[...]

SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
CC: Ah, so this is [probably] why the Valiant went missing and how she got out this far. I'm willing to assume that the magnetic space storm swept the Valiant at superluminal speeds.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here.
CC: Yep, the Enterprise is at the edge of the galaxy right now. The Valiant was forced out of the galaxy by the magnetic space storm. Further, there is no direct evidence in this episode supporting the idea of the Valiant being sent on a mission to probe outside the galaxy. There is only direct evidence of the Valiant being sent off on a mission that she could complete at sublight speeds.
I'm not getting it all. The tapes are pretty badly burned. Sounds like the ship had encountered some unknown force. Now, orders, counter orders, repeated urgent requests for information from the ship's computer records for anything concerning ESP in human beings.

[...]

KIRK: Comments?
PIPER: The only fact we have for sure is that the S.S. Valiant was destroyed.
KIRK: That's probably the best argument to continue the probe. Other vessels will be heading out here someday and they'll have to know what they'll be facing. We're leaving the galaxy, Mister Mitchell. Ahead, warp factor one.
CC: And now the Enterprise actually leaves the galaxy.
SPOCK: Force field of some kind.
MITCHELL: We're coming up on it fast.
SPOCK: Sensor beam on.
KELSO: Sensor beam on, sir.
SPOCK: Deflectors full intensity.
KELSO: Deflectors full intensity.
SPOCK: Deflectors say there's something there, sensors say there isn't. Density negative. Radiation negative. Energy negative.
KELSO: Whatever it is, contact in twelve seconds.
CC: Nothing really on point about the discussion there, but these are just some really cool lines from Shouting Spock.
[...]

MITCHELL: My love has wings. Slender, feathered things with grace in upswept curve and tapered tip. The Nightingale Woman, written by Phineas Tarbolde on the Canopius planet back in 1996. It's funny you picked that one, Doctor.
CC: Yeah, so it's supposed to be Canopus Planet, first of all, and second of all, Canopus, Alpha Carinae, is 310 ± 20 light years from Earth [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopus]. So what's going on here? Is this more of the ancient-times-fuzzy-date-mythology trope, if the poem was originally written in English? Or, is this a poem translated into English, acquired into human knowledge after the Federation was formed? A puzzle! Though, I always assumed the former, and a human poet, writing in English.
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Old March 13 2013, 12:27 AM   #92
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

And, didn't Mitchell suggest that this poem was written within two centuries of his year? So, if Phineas Tarbolde was a human, and if that human was living on a planet outside the Sol System, could it be argued that there were active warp ships at the time?

Phineas is a human name, with its origins in the Bible.
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Old March 13 2013, 02:42 AM   #93
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

throwback wrote: View Post
And, didn't Mitchell suggest that this poem was written within two centuries of his year? So, if Phineas Tarbolde was a human, and if that human was living on a planet outside the Sol System, could it be argued that there were active warp ships at the time?

Phineas is a human name, with its origins in the Bible.
I probably should have gone on to include that bit of dialog, too, in my previous post. http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/2.htm is down at the moment, but listening to my disk, what Gary says is:
"That's one of the most passionate love sonnets of the past couple of centuries."
Now, that might suggest two centuries, but as native English speakers know, not everyone who says "couple" always literally means "two"; "few" can also be meant, and dictionaries concur [e.g. 4 in 1 of http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/couple and 3 and usage note 2 in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/couple#Noun]. Where to draw the line is a little fuzzy, but I'd agree with the words in the Book of Armaments, Chapter 2, verses 9-21, that, "Five is right out."

It's also worth noting that I don't hear Lockwood say "Phineas"; it's something like "Ply". http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tarbolde credits the Star Trek Concordance for establishing Tarbolde's first name as Phineas. It's not clear to me why Bjo assigned it. She usually has a reason, whether it's from background notes, scripts, or something else with some sort of authority. I don't have a script to check what's in there; perhaps someone else can chime in on this point.

I think it's possible that chakoteya.net inserted "Phineas" into their WNMHGB transcript, in order to be in accordance with Memory Alpha's data; perhaps they couldn't tell what it was supposed to be otherwise.

Lockwood also flubbed the pronunciation of Canopus. The delivery is excellent, so perhaps the director didn't think it was worth re-shooting; or maybe that is the way the script reads, too.

Anyway, "couple of centuries" isn't hard enough to pin down to precisely two centuries. But yeah, the episode did indeed suggest that sort of time-frame.
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Old March 13 2013, 03:47 AM   #94
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

He says "by" twice. You can also check the subtitles/captions track.

If "past couple of centuries" is 2-4 hundred years then that would suggest interstellar travel as early as 1996 if Tarbolde was from Earth. The old DY-100's were supposedly interplanetary only. Perhaps there were other ship types that were sent to Canopus/Canopius and by 2018 faster impulse engines came into being?
MITCHELL: My love has wings. Slender, feathered things with grace in upswept curve and tapered tip. The Nightingale Woman, written by... by Tarbolde on the Canopius planet back in 1996. It's funny you picked that one, Doctor.
...
MITCHELL: That's one of the most passionate love sonnets of the past couple of centuries.

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Old March 13 2013, 03:52 AM   #95
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Thanks, blssdwlf.
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Old March 13 2013, 05:01 AM   #96
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Lockwood and/or the cript wroter might well have flubbed the pronunciation of Canopus, but the fact is Mitchell does say Canopius so it could well be something different in TOS' fictional universe. And since we don't actually hear Tarbolde's first name Mitchell could be repeating the name of someone not of Earth. And finally the Earth dating system (referencing 1996) is directly aimed at viewers so we can have a reference we can understand rather than Mitchell using a stardate. In universe Mitchell could say 1996 because he wants Dehner to understand exactly what he's saying and seeing she's from Earth than using an Earth date just facilitates things.

Episodes to follow in first season do tend to support the idea that FTL doesn't happen until at least mid 21st century and maybe a bit later. Indeed even in "The Cage" the idea is put across that the Enterprise is of a breed of ships significantly faster than what existed before. We don't know the specifics, but the idea is put across.

The 2018 date from "Space Seed" suggests a new form of propulsion made the use of sleeper ships obsolete. My conjecture would be a fast relativistic drive that allowed crews to take advantage of time dilation. It might have been the development of impulse as we know it. That with artificial gravity (as referenced in TAS' "Slaver Weapon") means ships could accelerate more quickly to cruising speed and decelerate more quickly, too. Now you can get to other nearby star systems within a few years (objective time) while it's much shorter for the crews.

If Cochrane develops the space warp in the 2060s and they have fast STL ships since 2018 then thats an easy forty some years to get to other planets where either a human named Tarbolde travels to the Canopius planet or an alien with a name sounding like Tarbolde is encountered there and the traveling humans hear his poem translated and recited in English.
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Old March 13 2013, 05:35 AM   #97
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Lockwood and/or the cript wroter might well have flubbed the pronunciation of Canopus, but the fact is Mitchell does say Canopius so it could well be something different in TOS' fictional universe. And since we don't actually hear Tarbolde's first name Mitchell could be repeating the name of someone not of Earth. And finally the Earth dating system (referencing 1996) is directly aimed at viewers so we can have a reference we can understand rather than Mitchell using a stardate. In universe Mitchell could say 1996 because he wants Dehner to understand exactly what he's saying and seeing she's from Earth than using an Earth date just facilitates things.

Episodes to follow in first season do tend to support the idea that FTL doesn't happen until at least mid 21st century and maybe a bit later. Indeed even in "The Cage" the idea is put across that the Enterprise is of a breed of ships significantly faster than what existed before. We don't know the specifics, but the idea is put across.

The 2018 date from "Space Seed" suggests a new form of propulsion made the use of sleeper ships obsolete. My conjecture would be a fast relativistic drive that allowed crews to take advantage of time dilation. It might have been the development of impulse as we know it. That with artificial gravity (as referenced in TAS' "Slaver Weapon") means ships could accelerate more quickly to cruising speed and decelerate more quickly, too. Now you can get to other nearby star systems within a few years (objective time) while it's much shorter for the crews.

If Cochrane develops the space warp in the 2060s and they have fast STL ships since 2018 then thats an easy forty some years to get to other planets where either a human named Tarbolde travels to the Canopius planet or an alien with a name sounding like Tarbolde is encountered there and the traveling humans hear his poem translated and recited in English.
Yeah, this fits, I think.

Now, is the date for the discovery of the flying belt in the stasis box ever given? I rather liked that contribution from The Slaver Weapon, since the artificial gravity was always awfully magical. Obviously, they had artificial gravity by the time of ENT. Having discovered that stasis box in the early 21st century would solve a lot of problems in the Trek universe.
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Old March 13 2013, 05:57 AM   #98
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

I'm not sure if the date is referenced in the TAS episode. I seem to recall a date reference in Bjp Trimble's Star Trek Concordance which set the discovery of the stasis box within the Sol system in the late 20th or early 21st century. And remember in TOS' continuity humans had been out into the solar system by the 1990s. In that continuity the space programs didn't pull back after Apollo or else DY class ships would never have been developed by the 1990s.
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Old March 13 2013, 06:52 AM   #99
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Wouldn't Botany Bay qualify as an example of artificial gravity already present in the 1990's on the DY-100 ships?
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Old March 13 2013, 06:54 AM   #100
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Wouldn't Botany Bay qualify as an example of artificial gravity already present in the 1990's on the DY-100 ships?
Ouch. Yeah, it would!
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Old March 13 2013, 07:23 AM   #101
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Wouldn't Botany Bay qualify as an example of artificial gravity already present in the 1990's on the DY-100 ships?
Yes, so then the Slaver gravity built had to have been found by then.
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Old March 13 2013, 08:20 AM   #102
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Warped9 wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Wouldn't Botany Bay qualify as an example of artificial gravity already present in the 1990's on the DY-100 ships?
Yes, so then the Slaver gravity built had to have been found by then.
Assuming it's actually that Slaver-era technology on the Botany Bay, then, yeah, it would have to be found by then. Good catch, blssdwlf!

But then, why wouldn't it be the Slaver-era technology? It's just so magical to begin with that, in many ways, it strains imagination more, if it's not the technology from the stasis box.

It's kinda obvious at this point but still worth stating, Niven's premise there in TAS could begin to explain how Star Trek's future history has humanity being so much more advanced in terms of spaceflight than we are, just across the board. Once studied and replicated, one piece of magical technology is going to have ramifications on all sorts of fields, that I'd expect to be compounded to cause great leaps in development.
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Old March 13 2013, 09:32 AM   #103
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

TAS added additional confusion to the timeline. According to that series, 250 years before the year that the crew of the Enterprise met a clone of Dr. Stavros Keniclius, this geneticist, later known for his work in the Eugenics War, was born. Accepting the year as 2269, this places his birth about 2019, and the Eugenics War as having taken place in the mid-21st century.

It's interesting to note that Dr. Keniclius was on Earth when the first Human-Kzinti war occurred. (This war was said to have begun over two hundred years prior.)

So, approximately two hundred years or so before the Enterprise's five year mission, there were these events:
* the Eugenics War on Earth
* the first Human-Kzinti war
* the Valiant is sent on a deep space mission
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Old March 13 2013, 11:34 AM   #104
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

The 200 year reference has to be fudged. Folks can say "200 years" or "two centuries" and still not mean exactly that amount of time. In WNMHGB Kirk first says in his log the Valiant went missing over two centuries ago and then later in another log entry he says nearly two centuries ago. So which is it or did he get more updated information later? My conjecture is the Valiant was one of those fast STL ships that had an early space warp drive fitted to it then went missing not long thereafter.

Also in the early years of warp flight it might not have worked the way it does in the Pike, Kirk and Picard eras. Being able to go FTL even if not much above light (say maybe 10-20%) would be revolutionary and a helluva advancement, but it's still pretty slow going even to the nearest stars. And maybe warp flight in the early days is more of a point-to-point affair and navigating while at warp is real tricky. Also sustaining warp flight might also be tricky, sustaining a stable warp field particularly while in something like a magnetic storm might have been considered hazardous. In that context then Kirk's assumption that "the old impulse engines weren't strong enough" might have more meaning.

Of course it's all conjecture, but it's a way to stitch things together piece by piece.

I'll add one more thing, and yes it contradicts ENT. In "The Cage" Jose Tyler comments on how much faster the then newer ships are and thereby implying ships of the Columbia's era were much slower. In "Balance Of Terror" Spock mentions the ships of a century earlier were "primitive." And later in "The Ultimate Computer" we learn Daystrom's duotronic computer systems revolutionized starship design and capabilities some twenty-five years earlier. Hmm, what exactly happened 25-30 some years before the Kirk era? Maybe what happened was that Daystrom's duotronic computer systems were so much faster than what came before that it lead to a technological leap, particularly in terms of warp flight, that made everything before seem comparatively primitive. It would be akin to what computer technology has done for us over the past 25-30 years. Daystrom's systems possibly now have made navigating while at warp a lot easier and safer. Daystrom's systems might have solved sustainability problems for stable warp speeds. Now instead of maximum Warp 2 and 3 with occasional risky bursts of 4 you can easily reach Warp 5-8 and hold it and also not worry about piling into a planet or something because you can clearly see where you're going and easily steer at that speed as well because your fancy new duotronic systems can make the necessary calcutions and changes so much faster than before. It would be similar to what computer management systems have done for automobile engine performance as well as jet plane performance.

Part of why I have issue with ENT is because they chose to make everything look so neat-and-tidy and really not much different all from what we had already seen taking place centuries later.

Something to think about.
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Old March 13 2013, 01:53 PM   #105
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Re: Earth ship Valiant

Warped9 wrote: View Post
The 200 year reference has to be fudged. Folks can say "200 years" or "two centuries" and still not mean exactly that amount of time.
True enough. This also goes for other round figures such as 250, two and a half, etc.

In WNMHGB Kirk first says in his log the Valiant went missing over two centuries ago and then later in another log entry he says nearly two centuries ago. So which is it or did he get more updated information later?
On this point, I think your information might be in error. Unless there is another reference that I've missed, the two references you must be referring were ones I gave upthread:
Captain's log, Star date 1312.4. The impossible has happened. From directly ahead, we're picking up a recorded distress signal, the call letters of a vessel which has been missing for over two centuries. Did another Earth ship once probe out of the galaxy as we intend to do? What happened to it out there? Is this some warning they've left behind?
KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago.
If it was the magnetic space storm whisking her away that caused the Valiant to go missing, which I assume, then there was a period of time during which she rode the storm out of the galaxy, then encountered the barrier, limped back, had her on board crisis, and then was destroyed. That explains the time differential between when the Valiant went missing and when the disaster recorder was ejected that Kirk is evidently talking about. I assume that the Enterprise science section was able to date something on the recorder's exterior, such as the charring.

My conjecture is the Valiant was one of those fast STL ships that had an early space warp drive fitted to it then went missing not long thereafter.

Also in the early years of warp flight it might not have worked the way it does in the Pike, Kirk and Picard eras. Being able to go FTL even if not much above light (say maybe 10-20%) would be revolutionary and a helluva advancement, but it's still pretty slow going even to the nearest stars. And maybe warp flight in the early days is more of a point-to-point affair and navigating while at warp is real tricky. Also sustaining warp flight might also be tricky, sustaining a stable warp field particularly while in something like a magnetic storm might have been considered hazardous. In that context then Kirk's assumption that "the old impulse engines weren't strong enough" might have more meaning.
That would all work well enough, I think. It's a nice reconciliation actually, and it's infinitely better than supposing that there are FTL impulse engines. Additionally, it's consistent with the assumption that the magnetic space storm in question itself whisked the Valiant away superluminally. That assumption seems pretty necessary, frankly, since even if the Valiant is FTL, she's still going to be too slow to get out of the galaxy under her own power, given her age. That effect might have rendered her Cochrane drive completely inoperative. Maybe shielding of the era was inadequate, or something.
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