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Old March 9 2013, 03:04 AM   #91
IndyJones
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Re: Friction at DC

davejames wrote: View Post
I'm certainly not a fan of these anti-gay marriage groups, but signing petitions and trying to throw a writer off a Superman comic just seems silly to me, and makes the whole movement look bad.
Yeah. And a couple of wife beaters make all men look bad. And all anti-war protesters are diminished by the actions of Code Pink, and...

Noname Given wrote: View Post
I sttill think it's a sad state of affairs when ANYONE is in effect persecuted for personal beliefs or what they say or think...
...or do.

You forgot to add that part in.

OSC doesn't just think I shouldn't have equal rights, he puts his money and time into the fight. He is a board member for the National Organization of Marriage, which is putting money into the fight against marriage equality in my state.

And I think persecution may not have been the word you were looking for there.
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Old March 9 2013, 03:05 AM   #92
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Re: Friction at DC

No, I don't think it's just about Superman. And yeah, this will have an impact on products with Card's name attached to it. Card's views aren't a secret. They are there for anyone who bother's to look to see. No need for spin doctors, this twister was already in motion. Conspiracy theorists need not apply.
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Old March 9 2013, 03:25 AM   #93
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Re: Friction at DC

Well, Chick Fil-A set the tone.
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Old March 9 2013, 05:11 AM   #94
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Re: Friction at DC

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
The petition is sickening.

You don't like Scott Card's views on gay marriage*? Cool. Don't buy it. There's plenty of other Superman books by plenty of other people who are just fine with homosexual marriage. But to actively campaign for the man to lose his job because you disagree with him?? He has a right to his views and he has a right to make a living if he's good at what he does (having read Ender's Game but nothing else by him, I certainly would say he is going by that), just as you're free to not support him. And don't give me any of this crap about Superman being an icon and therefore, we can't have someone who doesn't have the same value system as us writing for him even though those views probably have absolutely nothing to do with the story whatsoever.

It's situations like this that make liberals seem as totalitarian and repressive as conservatives. Fight words with words. Make your point and make it clear; don't lobby for someone to actually lose their fucking job because you disagree with them. And because Sprouse has quit, not because he disagreed with Card, but because "The media surrounding this story reached the point where it took away from the actual work, and that’s something I wasn’t comfortable with," they actually succeeded in harming this man's job because they don't like his views on a subject.

*My own view is that the government should stay out of marriage period, but if they have to, then two men or two women (or three men, or two women and a man, or whatever any consenting, conscious adult wants) should be equal to anyone else who wants to. But that's irrelevant.
He can THINK whatever he wants...

The problem is he actively ACTS WITH and CONTRIBUTES MONEY AND HIS TIME to groups which ACTIVELY work to keep civil rights from a particular group of citizens.

When THINKING turns to ACTING, then all bets are off.
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Last edited by nightwind1; March 9 2013 at 05:34 AM.
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Old March 9 2013, 06:33 AM   #95
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Friction at DC

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
[What's your point? If they did something that offended a large enough people who would choose to boycott it, cause what, it would be in their best financial interests to change.
Large enough? If DC had to rely on an alleged 16,000 people for the survival of any of their titles, the company would fold. You are allowing your sociopolitical leaning make this into a cause it--apparently--is not.

DC is not threatened by this.

So, you watch things you might get offended by, what is your point? That you're the bigger person? Or MAYBE it's because SNL doesn't REALLY go all that far? Even in its Satire?
It means as a functioning adult, you should be able to exercise the choice to avoid content you do not like, or content produced by people with views you disagree with. A far different situation than trying to force those creating and/or producing content to influence hiring decisions (or content) because you cannot stand a view of one of the employees.

In other words, change the channel, let your fingers skip over a comic on the rack, etc.


I would argue his PUBLIC advocacy of Straight only marriage DOES damage their brand.
You will need to prove this. Yes, I know the media would have the world believe "everyone" supports same sex marriage, but if we take actual events on a case by case basis--away from the media generalizing, the OSC response is so tepid that it would suggest--strongly--the opposite: few care at all, and it is not going to damage the DC brand to any significant degree.

The signatures could grow to 30,000 tomorrow, but that too, is not a threat to DC Comics (or the parent company), and no one is taking to the streets over this.

To be frank, the comic publishing world recieved more heat from the death of a fictional character (Superman) than this issue.

Shouldn't that be reason enough to get rid of him?
Do you even hear yourself? Would you agrue the same if a gay writer's personal views offended 16,000 readers enough to complain for his removal?
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Old March 9 2013, 06:36 AM   #96
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Re: Friction at DC

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Large enough? If DC had to rely on an alleged 16,000 people for the survival of any of their titles, the company would fold.
Their cancellation threshold is around 10-20,000 so yes 16,000 or even 4000 could make or break a book.

Which makes this next statement outrageous:

DC is not losing a dime (or sleep) over this.
They probably are losing money. Because they PAID OSC already, but since the artist quit, they shelved the story and had to use ANOTHER story. So yes likely they are losing money and the negative publicity has already had stories boycotting the book.

To be frank, the comic publishing world recieved more heat from the death of a fictional character (Superman) than this issue.
That was in the 90s. The Return of Superman is part of the reason the industry crashed during that time.
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Old March 9 2013, 06:50 AM   #97
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Re: Friction at DC

[QUOTE=Hound of UIster;7778950
Their cancellation threshold is around 10-20,000 so yes 16,000 or even 4000 could make or break a book.[/quote]

Comic companies cancel titles often. Take a look at the number DC alonr has dropped in the past 5 years. A decade. The company moves on.

Because they PAID OSC already, but since the artist quit, they shelved the story and had to use ANOTHER story. So yes likely they are losing money and the negative publicity has already had stories boycotting the book.
Comic companies paying for pages (art) and scripts that end up never seeing the light of day is not uncommon, so any suggestion that paying for an unpublished OSC comic was some notable loss to the company is simply politicized stretching of reality.

That was in the 90s. The Return of Superman is part of the reason the industry crashed during that time.
You're missing the point, which is the "death" of a fictional character caused more of an uproar than this incident, which some (in this thread) are trying to turn into a controversy on the level of a certain administration BSing about WMDs.
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Old March 9 2013, 07:31 AM   #98
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Re: Friction at DC

They're not paying for physical pages.

This was an online comic... Check on that for me?

People still preordered it, but shops didn't preorder thousands of copies.

No trees were earmarked for this project.

IN the nineties, most oft he best selling comics sold over a million issues (in response to about a million preorders) which means that back then the cancellation threshold was set a hell of a lot higher then than it is now.

Comic books have quadrupled in cover price since 1990.
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Old March 9 2013, 08:06 AM   #99
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Re: Friction at DC

No it's both an online and paper comic. The online version gets released before the physical copies ship.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Comic companies cancel titles often. Take a look at the number DC alonr has dropped in the past 5 years. A decade.
And that is not good. The turnover is just one of the signs they are not doing too well.

Comic companies paying for pages (art) and scripts that end up never seeing the light of day is not uncommon, so any suggestion that paying for an unpublished OSC comic was some notable loss to the company is simply politicized stretching of reality.
No you are missing the point. People boycotting the comic, the editors paying for a story that will never see the light of day, that eats away at their bottom line. The bad rep, that is going to hurt sales and hurt their future plans for Superman. And Warner isn't going to be too pleased either with the bad publicity.
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Old March 9 2013, 08:39 AM   #100
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Re: Friction at DC

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
[What's your point? If they did something that offended a large enough people who would choose to boycott it, cause what, it would be in their best financial interests to change.
Large enough? If DC had to rely on an alleged 16,000 people for the survival of any of their titles, the company would fold. You are allowing your sociopolitical leaning make this into a cause it--apparently--is not.
16,000 is about half of a typical audience for a comic book sold by DC. So, I'm using math, not my sociopolitical views. If you're selling something and HALF of your potential audience is being vocal about not buying it, chances are there are more who won't buy as well.


DC is not threatened by this.
The boycott isn't about bringing down DC. DC is not being threatened. ONE comic book is being boycotted. So, your point is... pointless...


So, you watch things you might get offended by, what is your point? That you're the bigger person? Or MAYBE it's because SNL doesn't REALLY go all that far? Even in its Satire?
It means as a functioning adult, you should be able to exercise the choice to avoid content you do not like, or content produced by people with views you disagree with.
Sure. That's an option. And just let things like racism and homophobia continue. But, then, it's not really your problem, so who cares, right?

Some people DO care. Some people like to try and make the world a better place. You are free to participate or not.

A far different situation than trying to force those creating and/or producing content to influence hiring decisions (or content) because you cannot stand a view of one of the employees.
The company might not shelve the story. It's up to them. It's called the Free Market. Why shouldn't the market be able to speak to the producers?


In other words, change the channel, let your fingers skip over a comic on the rack, etc.
That's an option. Sure. It means being disengaged from the world. It means not trying to do anything to make the world more free, more fair. But, you are free to decide how want to participate in the world.



I would argue his PUBLIC advocacy of Straight only marriage DOES damage their brand.
You will need to prove this.
Really? Ok, then you prove the opposite. That his advocacy of bigotry reflects WELL on DC.

Just ask yourself, if I was a businessman, would I want a bigot representing my product? Would I want a bigot who actively pursues limiting the rights of other Americans representing my product?


Yes, I know the media would have the world believe "everyone" supports same sex marriage,
Over 50 percent of Americans support gay marriage. That's not media, that's math. I know reality challenges your conceptions of what you think Americans believe... but... it'll be ok.


but if we take actual events on a case by case basis--away from the media generalizing, the OSC response is so tepid that it would suggest--strongly--the opposite: few care at all, and it is not going to damage the DC brand to any significant degree.
The market of ACTUAL comic book buyers is SO small. That, again, 16,000 is a significant number.


The signatures could grow to 30,000 tomorrow, but that too, is not a threat to DC Comics (or the parent company), and no one is taking to the streets over this.
No. No one is. But, I don't think that's the expectation of the boycotters. It's a lovely straw man though.


To be frank, the comic publishing world recieved more heat from the death of a fictional character (Superman) than this issue.

Shouldn't that be reason enough to get rid of him?
Do you even hear yourself? Would you agrue the same if a gay writer's personal views offended 16,000 readers enough to complain for his removal?
I do hear myself. Do you hear yourself? Yes. I would. I would continue to argue that it's fully in their right to do that. Would I agree with them? No. Would I hope DC would stand by their writer who ISN'T a bigot? Yes, I would hope they would. But... it would be the companies choice.

I didn't get my panties in a twist when the "Million" Moms tried to protest JC Penny's hiring of Ellen. Let them. Do YOU get upset with the Million Moms? Are YOU consistent in your thinking?
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Old March 9 2013, 09:18 AM   #101
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Re: Friction at DC

There's no such thing as one book.

If DC capitulates to terrorism, then more demands will come faster and faster until DC is Just a jail house bitch being passed around the yard.
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Old March 9 2013, 09:34 AM   #102
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Re: Friction at DC

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
There's no such thing as one book.

If DC capitulates to terrorism, then more demands will come faster and faster until DC is Just a jail house bitch being passed around the yard.
Too late, the Superman lawsuit already made sure of that, and it's all they deserve after getting Captain Marvel, but losing the name to those other crack whores at Marvel.
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Old March 9 2013, 12:05 PM   #103
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Re: Friction at DC

To answer LOB's question from last page..."Adventures of Superman" is a digitally based anthology, and I believe Card and Sprouse's story was the opening arc of the book. Not sure how many issues it was planned to be either. So theoretically one could just avoid buying the issues online and waiting for the next creative team/arc to start if they wanted.
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Old March 9 2013, 12:49 PM   #104
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Re: Friction at DC

I have to wonder just how many of those 16,000 signatures are actual potential buyers of the comic, or if they just signed the petition because they don't like OSC and his views.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:33 PM   #105
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Re: Friction at DC

What I find interesting about the OSC situation is the examination of freedom here. Those opposed to Card believe they have the right to live their life free of persecution, and they are correct in believing that. However, they also seem to believe this right only applies to the freedoms they approve of and enjoy; freedom for other people is unacceptable. So when Card expresses himself, he must not only be silenced; he must be destroyed.

This is where our society is now. Most only seem to suffer freedom as long as it serves them.
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