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Old March 9 2013, 01:29 AM   #76
I Am Groot
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Re: Friction at DC

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
I have no problem with anyone holding any kind of views from getting work so long as their prejudices don't actively interfere with someone else's livelihood (IE, a racist manager discriminating against an African-American employee).
Or a bigoted author using his celebrity, money, and influence to support Prop 8 in California, a state he doesn't even live in but feels he should dictate whether some of its citizens should be able to marry or not.

Or the same bigoted author using the advantages listed above to promote legislation outlawing gay sex when it was still legal to do so. Which would seem to me to be something that might interfere in their "livelihoods" if they had hiring difficulties due to criminal record for simply being who they are, wouldn't it?

Or the same author possibly inspiring violence against homosexuals by comparing them to pedophiles and rapists, which of course doesn't affect their lives or livelihoods in any way.

Or supporting businesses that actively discriminate against homosexual employees, which he has done.

Keep those blinders on, chief.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:32 AM   #77
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Re: Friction at DC

I was hoping this thread was about something way more nerd related.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:33 AM   #78
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Re: Friction at DC

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
that DC in general supports the views that Card has.
Which of course is a ridiculous view to have anyways. The idea that hiring someone means endorsing their personal views on an issue that has nothing to do with what they were hired to do is something no one would even discuss except in extreme cases like this. No one thinks that by hiring a McDonalds employee that the McDonalds corporation supports that employee's views on how to fix the economy. I think most people realize that DC's sole interest in the guy was writing a Superman story, not endorsing his views just because they wrote him a paycheck.

And before anyone says, "But he's so high profile about it!!" that's also baffling to me. So it's okay to hire someone with repugnant views as long as they keep their mouth shut, but not if they actually go out in public and say it? How does that work?
Perception is often more important than reality in the business world.

Yeah, they didn't vet him very well.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:35 AM   #79
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Re: Friction at DC

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
You are truly the most enlightened person in the thread, Nagisa.
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Keep those blinders on, chief.
Yeah, I think it's about time I bowed out of this discussion. My views on the subject have been stated, anyone's free to read them, agree with them or disagree with them.

The moment when it starts becoming personal is the moment I'm uninterested.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:42 AM   #80
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Re: Friction at DC

In America you have to let the NeoNazi Party have their NeoNazi Pride parades if they have all their permits paid up and signed off.

(I wish I was joking.)

Minorities should not be marginalized by the government or law.

Individual vs. Individual?

Civil discourse free for all short of libel and assault of course.

This is a society of words.

But...

Multimillion Dollar Political Lobby Fund vs. Individual?

Card is not an individual.

He's Carl Rove or Herman Goering near the head of a great rampagin beast.

(Or is it a dinky action group with 12 members?)

Quite simply the gays (others?) have to sack up and counter this comittee with equal force... Or over whelming force which is what is happening here to the concept of same sex marriage.

Most of the sodomy laws still being enforced, and they are still being enforced, are so ill-defined that straight people have been jailed for giving and receiving blow jobs, where it's likely that not even a marriage licence could stop those stormtrooping cock-police from saving the worlds penises from saliva, by kicking even the Presidents door down to extract Michelle off his weiner and drag her away in cuffs, if the cock-police felt compelled to follow the letter of the law always.

Reductio Ad Absurdium.

If all sodomy is illegal, then sodomy can't be consensensual, then all sodmoy is rape, then all gays are rapists.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:44 AM   #81
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Re: Friction at DC

When people take extreme viewpoints public, corporations are simply less likely to want to hire them.

It would be one thing if Card disapproved of the 'gay lifestyle' but once he starts pumping out poisonous propaganda, mainstream companies simply won't want anything to do with someone like that. They don't make money if they alienate the mainstream consumer.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:49 AM   #82
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Re: Friction at DC

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
It being good is probably the least of DC's concerns at this point. Just as Sheen being the star of a top rated TV was the least concern of the producers of that show when thinking about keeping him. They have a lot more at stake than doing something you don't like.
Actually, if Card's situation WAS like Sheen's they could have fired the guy without batting an eye. Sheen was coming to work stoned; and having problems DOING the work required. Sheen thought he was untouchable because of the high ratings and all the money being generated. The Producer/Creator had finally had enough though; and pulled the trigger and fired Sheen.

Again, in this situation, I'm NOT defending the guy's views AT ALL. I AM defending his right to be employed REGARDLESS of his views AS LONG AS those views do not affect his work product. I also acknowledge that DC is within its rights to NOT run the story if they feel it will hurt sales profitability; but again, I sttill think it's a sad state of affairs when ANYONE is in effect persecuted for personal beliefs or what they say or think - EVEN IF I think those beliefs are idiotic.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:51 AM   #83
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Re: Friction at DC

BillJ wrote: View Post
When people take extreme viewpoints public, corporations are simply less likely to want to hire them.

It would be one thing if Card disapproved of the 'gay lifestyle' but once he starts pumping out poisonous propaganda, mainstream companies simply won't want anything to do with someone like that. They don't make money if they alienate the mainstream consumer.
So to become hireable, he has to make homosexuality less popular?
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Old March 9 2013, 01:51 AM   #84
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Re: Friction at DC

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
You are truly the most enlightened person in the thread, Nagisa.
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Keep those blinders on, chief.
Yeah, I think it's about time I bowed out of this discussion. My views on the subject have been stated, anyone's free to read them, agree with them or disagree with them.

The moment when it starts becoming personal is the moment I'm uninterested.
If that's too personal for you than you're bound to be in for disappointment in future internet endeavors.

But hey, look on the bright side, at least no bigoted author is trying to dictate the way you live your life through repressive legislation, so it's all good. That would actually be personal. Perhaps even something worth petitioning against him for.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:53 AM   #85
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Re: Friction at DC

Noname Given wrote: View Post
...I sttill think it's a sad state of affairs when ANYONE is in effect persecuted for personal beliefs or what they say or think - EVEN IF I think those beliefs are idiotic.
I don't think it's that he is being persecuted for his personal beliefs. I think he got caught in a backlash because he made those views very public and mentioned things like going to war over stopping gay rights.
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Old March 9 2013, 01:54 AM   #86
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Re: Friction at DC

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So to become hireable, he has to make homosexuality less popular?
Or not make his views so public and so hateful sounding.
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Old March 9 2013, 02:01 AM   #87
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Re: Friction at DC

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
If that's too personal for you than you're bound to be in for disappointment in future internet endeavors.
I'm willing to discuss any issue so long as it's about the issue; I'm just not interested when it starts to become more about the people and less about the topic.

But hey, look on the bright side, at least no bigoted author is trying to dictate the way you live your life through repressive legislation, so it's all good.
I'm bi-sexual and said earlier in the thread that I've had consensual homosexual sex. If Scott Card got his way, what I've done would have been illegal and make me liable for prosecution. Which is why, as I said, I think his beliefs are sickening and repugnant.

It just wasn't what I was discussing.
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Old March 9 2013, 02:03 AM   #88
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Re: Friction at DC

Noname Given wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
It being good is probably the least of DC's concerns at this point. Just as Sheen being the star of a top rated TV was the least concern of the producers of that show when thinking about keeping him. They have a lot more at stake than doing something you don't like.
Actually, if Card's situation WAS like Sheen's they could have fired the guy without batting an eye. Sheen was coming to work stoned; and having problems DOING the work required. Sheen thought he was untouchable because of the high ratings and all the money being generated. The Producer/Creator had finally had enough though; and pulled the trigger and fired Sheen.

Again, in this situation, I'm NOT defending the guy's views AT ALL. I AM defending his right to be employed REGARDLESS of his views AS LONG AS those views do not affect his work product. I also acknowledge that DC is within its rights to NOT run the story if they feel it will hurt sales profitability; but again, I sttill think it's a sad state of affairs when ANYONE is in effect persecuted for personal beliefs or what they say or think - EVEN IF I think those beliefs are idiotic.
He got paid for his work. Once he turned in the work, his employment was at end. He may not be offered future work, though. Probably not worth the headache or bad publicity.
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Old March 9 2013, 02:17 AM   #89
I Am Groot
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Re: Friction at DC

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
But hey, look on the bright side, at least no bigoted author is trying to dictate the way you live your life through repressive legislation, so it's all good.
I'm bi-sexual and said earlier in the thread that I've had consensual homosexual sex. If Scott Card got his way, what I've done would have been illegal and make me liable for prosecution. Which is why, as I said, I think his beliefs are sickening and repugnant.

It just wasn't what I was discussing.
Than your position is even more baffling than before. If you acknowledge that he's actively trying to interfere in your personal life and choices (which you didn't acknowledge about him previously in the thread, but I digress), than how can you be so upset by people petitioning for his removal from the anthology? Turnabout is fair play and all that, even though what he's done is sooooo much worse.

By the way, I was serious about wondering (from anyone, not just you) whether the anthology is being published as separate books by each author that can be purchased individually, or combined into one book where you can't pick and choose which author's books you want to buy. Because to me, that gives extra motivation for the petition to remove Card from the book, because while they may want to boycott his writing, they might not want to boycott the other authors at the same time and hurt their sales. Just something to consider outside of the fact that OSC is a giant douche.

ETA:

Let's look at the situation this way. Orson Scott Card is a person with celebrity, wealth, stature with the LDS Church and community, and access to the media. All of those give him a fairly good deal of power and influence over a wide range of people. Someone forming a petition to keep me from getting a certain job because of my pro-LGBT rights stances wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, because the reaction is disproportionate to my own power, influence, and access, which is minimal. Just yelling at me on an internet forum is an equivalent response. However, using collective action in the form of a petition to match OSC's power and influence with some of your own makes perfect sense and is reasonable and proportionate. Do you understand what I'm getting at now, and why you shouldn't have a problem with the petition?
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Last edited by I Am Groot; March 9 2013 at 02:42 AM.
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Old March 9 2013, 02:56 AM   #90
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Re: Friction at DC

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
It being good is probably the least of DC's concerns at this point. Just as Sheen being the star of a top rated TV was the least concern of the producers of that show when thinking about keeping him. They have a lot more at stake than doing something you don't like.
Actually, if Card's situation WAS like Sheen's they could have fired the guy without batting an eye. Sheen was coming to work stoned; and having problems DOING the work required. Sheen thought he was untouchable because of the high ratings and all the money being generated. The Producer/Creator had finally had enough though; and pulled the trigger and fired Sheen.

Again, in this situation, I'm NOT defending the guy's views AT ALL. I AM defending his right to be employed REGARDLESS of his views AS LONG AS those views do not affect his work product. I also acknowledge that DC is within its rights to NOT run the story if they feel it will hurt sales profitability; but again, I sttill think it's a sad state of affairs when ANYONE is in effect persecuted for personal beliefs or what they say or think - EVEN IF I think those beliefs are idiotic.
He got paid for his work. Once he turned in the work, his employment was at end. He may not be offered future work, though. Probably not worth the headache or bad publicity.
Being serious here for a moment.

This isn't just about comics.

The gaygenda found it's poster child, and they're going to follow him and keep kicking till he's a bloody mess that falls down a manhole. Any time he tries to earn money for the rest of his life, they'll be there until he is fired. One day they could still be protesting the homeless shelter that took Orsen in because the elements deserve a chance to kill him.

Stopping now because Superman is safe is weaksauce.

Do you think that Superman is really the only product so pure and noble that it can't be sullied by a homophobe? Maybe that's how it started, and I do mean MAYBE, but it's not going to be how it finishes. Card better make a lot of money off this movie, becuase I seriously think this is a dress rehersal for the movie, and if he can't live off what he makes form Enders Game (after it tanks) for the rest of his life, then he's going to be a drunk rentboy on meth living in an alley within three years. (It's not fair. Chosing to become a prostitute becuase everything went wrong is a game of chicken that woman always lose first. Not all women, just the women who become prositutues or get married. But by the time all the blokes figure out that the only way they can make ends meet is to have sex for a living, all the degenrate women that would pay for sex, are already prostitutes being paid for sex, so the lads either become "gay for pay" or drown themselves. Like I said, it's not fair that men have a stronger moral compass than women.)

Did this lynching of Orson Scott Card happen organically, or are we being manipulated by a spindoctor/publisist into generating and expressing these views we have now, until shaping the public concensensus like exactly how they wanted us to months in advance? Hell, consdering how publicity works, Cards own peopel might have started this just so he can been seen as some poor bastard beaten down and forced to come to an epiphany about how worng he is and deliver a sincere apology about his affiliation with this group and his hobby so that his PERSONALITY won't effect the back end on Enders Game, not unlike some grifter who throws themself under a bus to collect insuarance.

"THEY'RE USING YOU! THEY'RE USING YOU!"
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