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Old March 8 2013, 12:13 AM   #16
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

I've always seen the MU as a place where the universe was ever so slightly more aggressive. The Murder Promotion was probably just the extreme end of "person moves up when the one ahead of them dies." That's not unusual, even in today's society. We just, as a society, look down on murder, and think it's a thing we should investigate and prosecute. The MU folks (at least in TOS time) didn't put that high a priority on that. That, and the MU people put more stock into power, and somewhat less into arbitrary rules made by dead people than we do: in IaMD, if Archer had been successful in his mutiny, but not capturing the Defiant, he would have been prosecuted and executed when/if he got back home. They still had rules made by living people; otherwise, their society wouldn't have advanced. It was when that rule of law fell apart that the Empire fell. However, Smiley and Worf both seemed to have things under control, and there didn't seem to be too much actual backstabbery (Kira was just a psychopath).

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
In other words, if Americans invented a totalitarian system, it would be the MU.
We did. It was called slavery.
Anglo had slaves before whites settled in North America. In other words, Americans didn't invent slavery.
Slavery has been around since walking apes figured out they could own stuff.
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Old March 8 2013, 04:25 AM   #17
Sci
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

We did. It was called slavery.
Anglo had slaves before whites settled in North America. In other words, Americans didn't invent slavery.
Slavery has been around since walking apes figured out they could own stuff.
The American slave system was uniquely different and oppressive on a level its ancestral systems had never achieved.
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Old March 8 2013, 04:51 AM   #18
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

Sci wrote: View Post
The American slave system was uniquely different and oppressive on a level its ancestral systems had never achieved.
That's a topic for a TNZ thread, isn't it?

Anyway, where were we?

Oh, yes -- BELLYBUTTONS!
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Old March 8 2013, 05:43 PM   #19
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
The MU always struck me as more piratical than totalitarian in the sense we're used to, the notion of some government with total control over people. In TOS especially, the structure seemed a lot looser and more chaotic, with people being encouraged to commit murder in order to advance.

Really, it doesn't seem like a society that could exist on an ongoing basis, but assuming it could, it's more like libertarianism or anarchy run amok than fascism or communism. Or even the ultimate in laissez-faire capitalism, with the entrepreneurial spirit encouraged to a murderous degree.

In other words, if Americans invented a totalitarian system, it would be the MU.
That's pretty much how I saw it, and it made the Empire more interesting, original, and flamboyant than your run-of-the-mill fictional dictatorship. Compare with much more stereotypical (and duller) tyranny of the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:40 PM   #20
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

Metryq wrote: View Post
Realistically? I think the mirror universe would be unsustainable.
Exactly. It certainly wouldn't be sustainable according to the principles that govern the Prime Universe.

---

Looking at it from another point of view, one of the problems that none of the MU sequels ever grasped so to speak was that the MU made the most sense only in the context of the events of Mirror, Mirror involving the Halkans. The MU was a reflection of the Prime Universe, centered at those events, with the Halkans themselves as a fixed point, essentially identical in both universes.

That inversion makes sense from a literary perspective, to provide a pulpy "what if" scenario: What if the Federation took dilithium crystals by force?

Until the MU sequels came upon us, I always interpreted Scotty's technobabble about how the local field density between the universes was increasing to mean that the two universes were diverging, and once they had separated too far, they would never be similar enough to transport between again. The flip side of that was that the two universes had never been similar enough to transport between before, either, until they coincided closely enough in their respective Halkan incidents.

This whole business with the two universes having similar characters in various centuries, oh that just happened to be our main characters, never minding that most of the other people around them must have been dying off out of synchronization, if not completely different, threw any last vestige of sensibility out the window, as far as I'm concerned. The DS9 MU episodes are just gratuitous garbage.

ENT's IAMD was at least fun by comparison, warranting multiple fangirly squees. And its opening theme rocked.

---

To reconcile all that, we're back to our currents in time idea from The City on the Edge of Forever and Star Trek (2009). Somehow, both sweeping historical trends and important individuals in history occur simultaneously in both universes.

And this is the problem with revisiting the MU: day to day life in both universes is irrelevant, in the sense that individual choices don't alter the flow of history; the two universes are fated to stay synchronized as Bizarro-like versions of each other. Your day to day life is just whatever realizes that fate.

And this implies that human nature is fundamentally different in the MU. The two universes just couldn't stay synchronized otherwise. Additionally, assuming that the Prime Universe is logical, there can't ultimately be what we consider logic in the MU; in the MU there can be only a Bizarro kind of logic.
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Old March 15 2013, 03:50 AM   #21
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

yousirname wrote: View Post
Instead of waking up in the morning, brewing a pot of coffee and fixing bacon and eggs, people wake up in the EVIL morning, brew a pot of EVIL coffee and fix EVIL bacon and EVIL eggs.
"Oh no! This food has gone good! Throw it away."
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Old March 15 2013, 01:58 PM   #22
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

"You useless tool! You bought this milk before its expiry date!"
"Stupid grocery store, why'd they stick it on the shelf if it hasn't expired? Don't they pay attention to what they're doing?"
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Old March 15 2013, 11:25 PM   #23
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Re: Mirror universe, Day to day and Civilian life

"These canned goods don't have the required level of botulism. When did the world turn into a bunch of sissys?"
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