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Old March 8 2013, 07:08 PM   #16
DalekJim
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Re: Friction at DC

I find it so comical how up in arms the gay community has gotten over this. I'm a drug user and society thinks I should be in prison for the activity I participate in. You don't hear me demanding nobody ever be employed unless they agree with me that drug use is a private property (The private property being the person's body!) issue and no concern of the government's. I just.. don't feel that entitled.

People should be allowed to think whatever they like. The gay community is always going on about how they're equal to straights, yet they demand special treatment and attention.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:13 PM   #17
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Re: Friction at DC

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
I don't have a problem with someone expressing their views on Card and recommending to others that they not buy it either.

I start to have a problem when we get petitions, as the article says, "calling for DC to remove him from the book." That is crossing the line. Don't like his Superman story? Don't buy it. But to lobby for him to lose his job? Sickening, just sickening.
Not at all. In many ways, it's more enlightened than simply not buying the comic in question, because it lets DC know in no uncertain terms that people have a problem with that one individual, and not others on the team. And since boycotting a product harms the whole team, communicating one's objection to a certain member is better for the group overall.

If DC were to offer a modified purchase of the series in which everyone but Card would be paid, that'd be another story. But consumers have the right to hold their clients (in this case, entertainment providers) to account, and this is simply one way of doing business.

Funny how right-wingers forget to gush about the viciousness of the free market when it's a social discriminator's turn to smell the exhaust.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:17 PM   #18
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Re: Friction at DC

This is a tricky situation. I'm straight, but I support rights for gay people. I would probably respond by just not buying his work (not that I was planning to purchase this superman story he was doing anyway). As long as he isn't writing anti-gay stuff in his work, he shouldn't be fired. Its fine to boycott his work (and I'll definately stay away from his work from now on after learning this, not that I've read too much of his stuff, I've read Ultimate Iron Man and thought it was not horrible but that good and i've never paid attention to him outside that book and knew nothing about him personally until reading this story and looking on wikipedia) but it is America, he has the right to his opinion, even if a lot of people (myself included) think its a horrible opinion. That said, if I was dC I'd just not hire him to begin with, if for no other reason then he's just going to cause them problems.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:18 PM   #19
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Re: Friction at DC

Gaith wrote: View Post
Not at all. In many ways, it's more enlightened than simply not buying the comic in question, because it lets DC know in no uncertain terms that people have a problem with that one individual, and not others on the team. And since boycotting a product harms the whole team, communicating one's objection to a certain member is better for the group overall.

If DC were to offer a modified purchase of the series in which everyone but Card would be paid, that'd be another story. But consumers have the right to hold their clients (in this case, entertainment providers) to account, and this is simply one way of doing business.

Funny how right-wingers forget to gush about the viciousness of the free market when it's a social discriminator's turn to smell the exhaust.

It is absolutely impossible to live your life trying not to fund anybody who's opinion you do not agree with (And I find it comical liberals find this to be in any way rational behaviour!). You'd have to stop paying taxes and probably stop buying absolutely anything.

I buy books, music and films from people I completely disagree with on much more important issues than gay marriage. Hell, I'm a Burzum fan. If I can enjoy art from murderers I can enjoy it from people who think homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to have pointless titles. I just... really don't care. I don't get why anybody would marry, whether gay or straight.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:35 PM   #20
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Re: Friction at DC

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Wait. Has this guy even written any anti-gay Superman stories?

No.

So that'd be like getting a plumber fired for not agreeing with gay marriage. His view has nothing to do with the job at all. Do these people seriously believe those with minority views shouldn't be entitled to any kind of employment? What kind of vile view is that?

Modern liberalism continues to get more insane. Welcome to Obama's brave new world.
What it the world does Obama and liberalism have to do with this? These types of petitions over hot button issues/personalities happen all over the political spectrum.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:39 PM   #21
Gaith
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Re: Friction at DC

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Boycott (as I would), tells others to Boycott, but, you can't call for him to be fired for a "thought crime".
In Nineteen Eighty-Four, thoughtcrime is, by definition, a private thought. Card has joined a public political group expressing his opinions. Irrelevant term is irrelevant.



DalekJim wrote: View Post
It is absolutely impossible to live your life trying not to fund anybody who's opinion you do not agree with (And I find it comical liberals find this to be in any way rational behaviour!). You'd have to stop paying taxes and probably stop buying absolutely anything.
There's nothing irrational about it. When people start valuing their wallets over their prejudice, social change occurs. Actions like protesting Card's employment contribute in tangible and real ways to gay partners getting access to pensions and health care.



DalekJim wrote: View Post
I don't get why anybody would marry, whether gay or straight.
Then, no offense, you are objectively ignorant. Spouses get hospital visitation rights, parental custody rights... in the military, married members of all ranks get funds to live with their spouses greater than the housing allowances of single persons, and many lower-ranking single persons get no such funds at all. For a junior enlisted member, a marriage certificate can mean the difference between living in a cramped barracks with an assigned roommate who loathes you and living with your partner who loves you.

Your disinterest in marriage doesn't bother me in the slightest, but your blithe attitude towards the views of others is insulting, and has the practical effect of condoning prejudice.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:49 PM   #22
DalekJim
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Re: Friction at DC

Gaith wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Boycott (as I would), tells others to Boycott, but, you can't call for him to be fired for a "thought crime".
In Nineteen Eighty-Four, thoughtcrime is, by definition, a private thought. Card has joined a public political group expressing his opinions. Irrelevant term is irrelevant.

Absolutely everybody should have the right to express their opinion on anything. The opinion can be challenged, debated and even attacked but the right to say it should never be taken away. I find the idea that some opinions are banned from being expressed publicly to be terrifying. I genuinely can't believe somebody would post this.

Gaith wrote:
Then, no offense, you are objectively ignorant. Spouses get hospital visitation rights, parental custody rights... in the military, married members of all ranks get funds to live with their spouses greater than the housing allowances of single persons, and many lower-ranking single persons get no such funds at all. For a junior enlisted member, a marriage certificate can mean the difference between living in a cramped barracks with an assigned roommate who loathes you and living with your partner who loves you.
Well, I disagree that people being in a relationship should get more rights than single people. I find it bafflingly unfair.

Your disinterest in marriage doesn't bother me in the slightest, but your blithe attitude towards the views of others is insulting, and has the practical effect of condoning prejudice.
My attitude is far fairer than yours. I believe absolutely everybody is entitled to their views and if they in no way affect the job in question, then they shouldn't be removed from it. You can't support equal rights for everybody while demanding those you don't agree with be made unemployed. It is absolute hypocrisy.

Our society is way too precious now and people seem to feel like they absolutely deserve not to be offended. Which is total bullshit. You will be offended every single day by something, and trying to infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others in order to make you feel a little better is monstrous.
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Old March 8 2013, 07:58 PM   #23
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Friction at DC

Gaith wrote: View Post
Funny how right-wingers forget to gush about the viciousness of the free market when it's a social discriminator's turn to smell the exhaust.
Funny how I'm not a right-winger.

I'm right on some issues, left on others.

Gaith wrote: View Post
Then, no offense, you are objectively ignorant. Spouses get hospital visitation rights, parental custody rights... in the military, married members of all ranks get funds to live with their spouses greater than the housing allowances of single persons, and many lower-ranking single persons get no such funds at all. For a junior enlisted member, a marriage certificate can mean the difference between living in a cramped barracks with an assigned roommate who loathes you and living with your partner who loves you.
All of which I think are wrong. A person shouldn't be given extra benefits because they made the social decision to be romantic with someone and put a made-up label on them.
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Old March 8 2013, 08:03 PM   #24
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Re: Friction at DC

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Wait. Has this guy even written any anti-gay Superman stories?

No.

So that'd be like getting a plumber fired for not agreeing with gay marriage. His view has nothing to do with the job at all. Do these people seriously believe those with minority views shouldn't be entitled to any kind of employment? What kind of vile view is that?

Modern liberalism continues to get more insane. Welcome to Obama's brave new world.
What it the world does Obama and liberalism have to do with this? These types of petitions over hot button issues/personalities happen all over the political spectrum.
As if conservatives have never called for a boycott! I mean, any way your political leanings go, I don't think you can say that's only a liberal thing.
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Old March 8 2013, 08:04 PM   #25
Noname Given
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Re: Friction at DC

I'm not against Gay marriage myself (what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is their own personal business - and if they want to legalize their relationship, they should be allowed that choice <-- My personal belief); but in a country where we value freedom of speech and expression, I DO find it disturbing that we make such a big deal publicly and in effect persecute someone professionally for his private beliefs. Unless the editor or an artist sees something inappropriate in the story itself he's asked to work on - why should the personal beliefs of a co-worker matter in a professional situation?
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Old March 8 2013, 08:05 PM   #26
Sindatur
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Re: Friction at DC

Gaith wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Boycott (as I would), tells others to Boycott, but, you can't call for him to be fired for a "thought crime".
In Nineteen Eighty-Four, thoughtcrime is, by definition, a private thought. Card has joined a public political group expressing his opinions. Irrelevant term is irrelevant.
So, you think McCarthyism was Good?

Are you in favor of Gay Men beng banned from being Preachers or Scoutmasters or Coaches/Teachers because you think they'll molest little boys?

When he puts his Anti-Gay opinions forward, that is the time to go after him. You can't try to prevent a man from working, just because you disagree with his views. That is every bit as prejudiced as the things I listed above or not hiring a young black guy, because you believe "All young black guys are thugs"

@DalekJim, Marriage ensures you are able to be with your Partner/Spouse when they are in the hospital, it ensures you are able to inherit or leave stuff to your spouse/Partner.

There are many, many cases when Gay Partners were deprived of spending the last few minutes of the dying Partner's life, because of Gay Prejudice. There are lots of stories of a Gay partner's life being ruined, because their partner died and the State or the dead Partner's Family took possesion of their things (What a horrible thing to hapen to anyone, let alone someone who just lost the love of their life to death).

Marriage allows you to carry your spouse on your Medical Insurance.

These aren't "extra Rights" as you put it, these are basic rights that should be granted to anyone in a loving committed relationship who are building a life together
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Old March 8 2013, 08:13 PM   #27
Gotham Central
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Re: Friction at DC

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Boycott (as I would), tells others to Boycott, but, you can't call for him to be fired for a "thought crime".
In Nineteen Eighty-Four, thoughtcrime is, by definition, a private thought. Card has joined a public political group expressing his opinions. Irrelevant term is irrelevant.

Absolutely everybody should have the right to express their opinion on anything. The opinion can be challenged, debated and even attacked but the right to say it should never be taken away. I find the idea that some opinions are banned from being expressed publicly to be terrifying. I genuinely can't believe somebody would post this.

Gaith wrote:
Then, no offense, you are objectively ignorant. Spouses get hospital visitation rights, parental custody rights... in the military, married members of all ranks get funds to live with their spouses greater than the housing allowances of single persons, and many lower-ranking single persons get no such funds at all. For a junior enlisted member, a marriage certificate can mean the difference between living in a cramped barracks with an assigned roommate who loathes you and living with your partner who loves you.
Well, I disagree that people being in a relationship should get more rights than single people. I find it bafflingly unfair.

Your disinterest in marriage doesn't bother me in the slightest, but your blithe attitude towards the views of others is insulting, and has the practical effect of condoning prejudice.
My attitude is far fairer than yours. I believe absolutely everybody is entitled to their views and if they in no way affect the job in question, then they shouldn't be removed from it. You can't support equal rights for everybody while demanding those you don't agree with be made unemployed. It is absolute hypocrisy.

Our society is way too precious now and people seem to feel like they absolutely deserve not to be offended. Which is total bullshit. You will be offended every single day by something, and trying to infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others in order to make you feel a little better is monstrous.

You seem to have this dubious belief that opinions ought to be consequence free. That is utter nonsense.

Free speech just means that the government is not going to round you up and throw you in jail for your beliefs. However, having abhorent beliefs and EXPRESSING THEM PUBLICALLY can and should impact your ability to gain employment and make a living. That is called a consequence.

Here's a thought experiment...if Orson Scott Card was a known racist and an active member of a white supremacist group, would you fault Warner Brothers/DC for terminating his contract upon discovery of his activities. Would you fault ANY employer for doing so? Suppose he expoused anti-semetic sentiments publically...would he still be employed?

The critical point here is not just that OSC holds personal veiws...Its that he is a PUBLIC FIGURE who has gone out of his way to not only express those views but advocte for them and participate in groups that even the Southern Poverty Law Center calls a hate group. DC/Warner Brothers is a media conglomerate whos financial success is directly impacted by its public image. By hiring Card even after his public coments they are implicitly endorsing his position, or at least saying that they are not so abhorent that they would not want to be associated with him. In that sense DC/WB needs to own up to their willingness to associate with those ideas.

The public, conversely, has the right and indeed the obligation to reject ideas/sentiments that they find problematic. OSC might just start rethinking his position if he finds that he has been publically shunned for his attitudes. Indeed, shunning and shaming is exactly what societies used to do in order to express displeasure with some ideas.

OSC should be, and is free to say and believe what he wants. However he should never believe that doing so comes cost free.
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Old March 8 2013, 08:19 PM   #28
Gotham Central
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Re: Friction at DC

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Boycott (as I would), tells others to Boycott, but, you can't call for him to be fired for a "thought crime".
In Nineteen Eighty-Four, thoughtcrime is, by definition, a private thought. Card has joined a public political group expressing his opinions. Irrelevant term is irrelevant.
So, you think McCarthyism was Good?

Are you in favor of Gay Men beng banned from being Preachers or Scoutmasters or Coaches/Teachers because you think they'll molest little boys?

When he puts his Anti-Gay opinions forward, that is the time to go after him. You can't try to prevent a man from working, just because you disagree with his views. That is every bit as prejudiced as the things I listed above or not hiring a young black guy, because you believe "All young black guys are thugs"

@DalekJim, Marriage ensures you are able to be with your Partner/Spouse when they are in the hospital, it ensures you are able to inherit or leave stuff to your spouse/Partner. There are many, many cases when Gay Partners were deprived of spending the last few minutes of the dying Partner's life, because of Gay Prejudice. There are lots of stories of a Gay partner's life being ruined, because their partner died and the State took possesion of their things (What a horrible thing to hapen to anyone, let alone someone who just lost the love of their life to death). Marriage allows you to carry your spouseon your Medical Insurance. These aren't "extra Rights" as you put it, these are basic rights that should be granted to anyone in a loving committed relationship who are building a life together
Actually, you most certainly can and should prevent someone from working if they hold socially abhorent views. As long as the government is not rounding them up and throwing them in jail, its all good. Employers have every right to decide what ideas they will and will not want to be associated with. The company I work for (and indeed many companies now) have social media polices that regulate what their employees can say and don online. Messages expressed in a public forum by the employee of any organization, even during their free time, can reflect on that business. Many businesses will terminate you for speech done on personal time that it finds objectionable.
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Old March 8 2013, 08:19 PM   #29
DalekJim
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Re: Friction at DC

Gotham Central wrote:
You seem to have this dubious belief that opinions ought to be consequence free. That is utter nonsense.
Chilling. Absolutely chilling.

I suppose they should be government regulated?

Actually, you most certainly can and should prevent someone from working if they hold socially abhorent views. As long as the government is not rounding them up and throwing them in jail, its all good. Employers have every right to decide what ideas they will and will not want to be associated with. The company I work for (and indeed many companies now) have social media polices that regulate what their employees can say and don online.
And I disagree with that policy completely, I think it's deeply scary. My friend works a meaningless, dead-end job at Tesco and is prohibited from expressing certain views online, which I find hysterical. It's something that 30 years ago would have been written in a dystopian novel and people would have laughed it off as absurd. Corporations controlling what people can say or believe? That'll never happen!

Oh.
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Old March 8 2013, 08:22 PM   #30
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Re: Friction at DC

Sorry but writing Superman isn't a constitutionally guaranteed right.
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