RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,849
Posts: 5,220,980
Members: 24,232
Currently online: 670
Newest member: glasssplashback

TrekToday headlines

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Miles Away Glyph Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 6 2013, 08:24 PM   #16
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

CaptainDave1701 wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think inherently Vulcan emotions are far more destructive than Human emotions.
Yep.

IIRC, Vulcans at their most warlike period were far worse than human society ever was. At the worst time, there was never more than 10% of the Vulcan population which was NOT at war.
I Agree,
From what I have read over the years with their telepathic as well as mental capabilities along with animal passions they nearly wiped themselves out. There was a time when they would have made the Klingons look like pussycats.They then embraced logic and non emotion.

yes, but you don't need to embrace emotional suppression to embrace peace. Pacifism isn't necessarily correlated with greater emotional control. They could have had an MLK or Gandhi-like figure who preached peace but didn't teach emotional suppression.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 10:13 PM   #17
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

sonak wrote: View Post
CaptainDave1701 wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

Yep.

IIRC, Vulcans at their most warlike period were far worse than human society ever was. At the worst time, there was never more than 10% of the Vulcan population which was NOT at war.
I Agree,
From what I have read over the years with their telepathic as well as mental capabilities along with animal passions they nearly wiped themselves out. There was a time when they would have made the Klingons look like pussycats.They then embraced logic and non emotion.

yes, but you don't need to embrace emotional suppression to embrace peace. Pacifism isn't necessarily correlated with greater emotional control. They could have had an MLK or Gandhi-like figure who preached peace but didn't teach emotional suppression.
That MLK or Gandhi-like figure was basically Surak. It was Surak who promoted peace by living a life based on logic rather than emotional impulses. The suppression of the otherwise extremely volatile (if not frequent erratic or even dangerous) Vulcan emotions was the key ingredient in that philsophy, IMO.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 11:15 PM   #18
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
CaptainDave1701 wrote: View Post

I Agree,
From what I have read over the years with their telepathic as well as mental capabilities along with animal passions they nearly wiped themselves out. There was a time when they would have made the Klingons look like pussycats.They then embraced logic and non emotion.

yes, but you don't need to embrace emotional suppression to embrace peace. Pacifism isn't necessarily correlated with greater emotional control. They could have had an MLK or Gandhi-like figure who preached peace but didn't teach emotional suppression.
That MLK or Gandhi-like figure was basically Surak. It was Surak who promoted peace by living a life based on logic rather than emotional impulses. The suppression of the otherwise extremely volatile (if not frequent erratic or even dangerous) Vulcan emotions was the key ingredient in that philsophy, IMO.

to clarify, I understand that Vulcan society was being torn apart by war at one point. I realize that they needed a philosophy to promote peace. What I'm asking is why emotional suppression was needed. Originally it was because Vulcans were so naturally violent when their emotions weren't strictly controlled, but Trek later showed us that wasn't the case with some Vulcans.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 11:33 PM   #19
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

sonak wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


yes, but you don't need to embrace emotional suppression to embrace peace. Pacifism isn't necessarily correlated with greater emotional control. They could have had an MLK or Gandhi-like figure who preached peace but didn't teach emotional suppression.
That MLK or Gandhi-like figure was basically Surak. It was Surak who promoted peace by living a life based on logic rather than emotional impulses. The suppression of the otherwise extremely volatile (if not frequent erratic or even dangerous) Vulcan emotions was the key ingredient in that philsophy, IMO.

to clarify, I understand that Vulcan society was being torn apart by war at one point. I realize that they needed a philosophy to promote peace. What I'm asking is why emotional suppression was needed. Originally it was because Vulcans were so naturally violent when their emotions weren't strictly controlled, but Trek later showed us that wasn't the case with some Vulcans.
There's always exceptions to anything--not all Vulcans are the same just like how not all Humans are the same--but I do think Surak's philosophy of logical deduction over emotional impulses was beneficial to Vulcan civilization in general, though.

For all intents and purposes, Vulcans may have self-annihilated themselves millennia ago if they hadn't learned to rein in those emotions. They may have let the Klingons look like angels in comparison, IMO.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2013, 07:18 PM   #20
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think inherently Vulcan emotions are far more destructive than Human emotions.

The Romulans developed their own sense of emotional control by developing an apparently oppressive society that discourages the populace from getting too out of hand.

Different solutions to the same problem?
That's my take on it, too. The violent-emotions problem must be legit, or the Vulcans look like idiots for creating a repressive society for no reason.

The Romulans have the same problem but control it by turning their aggression outwards. They have some egalitarian structures in their own society, a Senate for example, but behave with paranoia and aggression towards outsiders, which implies that they have to do this.

But even after all this time, the Romulans are still such cyphers that their "true nature" has not been explored. If this theory is correct, lasting peace with Romulans is actually impossible, and they're in the same category as the Borg - only temporary detente is possible - rather than the Klingons, who could become Fed allies as long as both sides understand each other.

I don't recall ENT ever contradicting this theory since I held it when I was watching it and would have noticed a contradiction. I do recall that T'Pol's confession to Trip about violent Vulcan emotions was the first time I remember this being addressed so directly on-screen. I probably picked the idea up from books previously (also TOS strongly implies it).
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2013, 08:20 PM   #21
Ronald Held
Rear Admiral
 
Location: On the USS Sovereign
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

Vulcan society survived due to some leaving Vulcan presumably not following the philosophy of Surak, while the vast majority did.
Ronald Held is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2013, 11:30 PM   #22
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

Surely the Vulcan society depicted in Trek didn't spring into existence overnight. Surak promoted logic over emotion for Vulcans, but was emotional suppression the original goal, or was it a trait that developed post-Surak? Using logic and embracing inner peace don't require emotional suppression, but that may have happened over the centuries as Surak's followers grew and his philosophy took hold among the population.

Is the choice for every Vulcan really either "raging violent berserker" or "unemotional robot"? Clearly some 22nd and 23rd century Vulcans could be emotional but not exceptionally violent. I wonder if part of the problem for Vulcan society was the existence of telepaths. Sarek was able to unconsciously project some of his emotions onto other people when he was ill with Bendii syndrome. If, in the Vulcan past, some raging berserker telepaths existed, might they have projected violent emotions onto others, spreading conflict?
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2013, 11:51 PM   #23
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Surely the Vulcan society depicted in Trek didn't spring into existence overnight. Surak promoted logic over emotion for Vulcans, but was emotional suppression the original goal, or was it a trait that developed post-Surak? Using logic and embracing inner peace don't require emotional suppression, but that may have happened over the centuries as Surak's followers grew and his philosophy took hold among the population.

Is the choice for every Vulcan really either "raging violent berserker" or "unemotional robot"? Clearly some 22nd and 23rd century Vulcans could be emotional but not exceptionally violent. I wonder if part of the problem for Vulcan society was the existence of telepaths. Sarek was able to unconsciously project some of his emotions onto other people when he was ill with Bendii syndrome. If, in the Vulcan past, some raging berserker telepaths existed, might they have projected violent emotions onto others, spreading conflict?

according to "the savage curtain," Surak believed in emotional suppression. But as you say, embracing peace and logic don't require emotional suppression, so I'm not quite sure why they got lumped together. The telepathy idea is a good one, but again, Sybok kind of contradicts that.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2013, 11:58 PM   #24
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

The Excalbian Surak was a projection of Spock's knowledge and view of him. Presumably he was exactly as Spock imagined him or knew him to be. But how accurate is Spock's view of the historical Surak?
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8 2013, 12:06 AM   #25
Shawnster
Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

How telepathic are Romulans? Perhaps they've lost this ability over the centuries after their exodus. Telepathy played a big role in the savage nature of pre-Surak Vulcan. Maybe without telepathy, the Romulans have had an easier time in conquering their savage heritage.

Or, perhaps the telepathic Remans figure into this somehow.
Shawnster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8 2013, 01:07 AM   #26
mos6507
Commander
 
mos6507's Avatar
 
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

Shawnster wrote: View Post
How telepathic are Romulans? Perhaps they've lost this ability over the centuries after their exodus. Telepathy played a big role in the savage nature of pre-Surak Vulcan. Maybe without telepathy, the Romulans have had an easier time in conquering their savage heritage.

Or, perhaps the telepathic Remans figure into this somehow.
One thing I didn't like about Romulans in TNG is they gave them subtle forehead ridges, so they must have split from Vulcan a LONG time ago to have gone through some actual physical evolution. Evolution is pretty slow if not nonexistent in a modern technological society. I don't think it was every disclosed whether Romulans had any telepathic capabilities although there were hints of some sort of special connection possible between Romulan/Vulcan couplings ala The Enterprise Incident, and then Saavik was half-romulan, but her origin was never explained.
__________________
Fem Trekz on Facebook
mos6507 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8 2013, 01:58 AM   #27
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Surely the Vulcan society depicted in Trek didn't spring into existence overnight. Surak promoted logic over emotion for Vulcans, but was emotional suppression the original goal, or was it a trait that developed post-Surak? Using logic and embracing inner peace don't require emotional suppression, but that may have happened over the centuries as Surak's followers grew and his philosophy took hold among the population.

Is the choice for every Vulcan really either "raging violent berserker" or "unemotional robot"? Clearly some 22nd and 23rd century Vulcans could be emotional but not exceptionally violent. I wonder if part of the problem for Vulcan society was the existence of telepaths. Sarek was able to unconsciously project some of his emotions onto other people when he was ill with Bendii syndrome. If, in the Vulcan past, some raging berserker telepaths existed, might they have projected violent emotions onto others, spreading conflict?
Or it could just be a simple case that Vulcans aren't like Humans and the suppression of their intense emotions is a necessary tool for them in their pursuit of logic.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8 2013, 03:33 AM   #28
indolover
Fleet Captain
 
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

I've never understood how any being can effectively suppress its emotions. For real life humans, this is obviously pathological.

But for Vulcans, maybe Surak discovered that Vulcans held an innate ability to maintain emotional control, which Vulcans in later times discovered via neurological analyses/studies.
indolover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8 2013, 03:47 AM   #29
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

indolover wrote: View Post
I've never understood how any being can effectively suppress its emotions. For real life humans, this is obviously pathological.

But for Vulcans, maybe Surak discovered that Vulcans held an innate ability to maintain emotional control, which Vulcans in later times discovered via neurological analyses/studies.

huh? There are various Human religions and philosophies(Buddhism and Stoicism come to mind) that teach emotional suppression as the path to inner peace or enlightenment. Granted they're not as extreme about it as the Vulcans, but it's not some rare kind of concept.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8 2013, 04:04 AM   #30
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: what's the rationale for Vulcan emotional suppression?

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
How telepathic are Romulans? Perhaps they've lost this ability over the centuries after their exodus. Telepathy played a big role in the savage nature of pre-Surak Vulcan. Maybe without telepathy, the Romulans have had an easier time in conquering their savage heritage.

Or, perhaps the telepathic Remans figure into this somehow.
One thing I didn't like about Romulans in TNG is they gave them subtle forehead ridges, so they must have split from Vulcan a LONG time ago to have gone through some actual physical evolution. Evolution is pretty slow if not nonexistent in a modern technological society. I don't think it was every disclosed whether Romulans had any telepathic capabilities although there were hints of some sort of special connection possible between Romulan/Vulcan couplings ala The Enterprise Incident, and then Saavik was half-romulan, but her origin was never explained.
Chalk it up to a regional/ethnic characteristic like a epicanthic fold in humans.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.