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Old March 6 2013, 12:56 AM   #31
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'd be curious as to how we could lawfully define whether someone "can" render assistance.
You could start by asking Kitty Genovese's family.
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Old March 6 2013, 01:10 AM   #32
Tora Ziyal
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

^Laser, the NYT recently had an interesting article about the Genovese case. Apparently there is a strong possibility that there were far fewer witnesses than originally stated.

And there's a good commentary on the original topic here.

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Old March 6 2013, 07:30 PM   #33
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'd be curious as to how we could lawfully define whether someone "can" render assistance.
I might be misremembering from my own CPR classes, but I was under the impression that anybody with a CPR certification (and I have to assume the nurses would be CPR-certified) was legally obligated to help someone in need. You might not be able to get in trouble if you don't help, but you're supposed to help if you've been trained to do so. Otherwise why bother getting the certification at all?
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Old March 6 2013, 07:57 PM   #34
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

There's quite a difference between-

is able to
should be able to
is obligated to

I suspect people pursue the certification because they want to be able to perform CPR...not because they want to be under any obligation to do so.
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Old March 6 2013, 08:03 PM   #35
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Perhaps, and again, I might just be misremembering what I was taught (I haven't been been certified in a few years), but I was under the impression that if you are certified and on the scene, you are legally obligated to help. Maybe laws vary by state?
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Old March 6 2013, 09:09 PM   #36
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

When I was CPR certified we were told that we were obligated to try to give aid. That meant that we were obligated to call 911.

However, if we found that the pressure of the situation was too much for us to deal with we were asked to not remain on the scene. I'm not sure what the actual reasoning was, but they really didn't want us to remain on the scene if we were not prepared to be part of the solution. This was way back in 1990. I haven't been certified since, so I don't know what the current thinking is.
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Old March 6 2013, 09:56 PM   #37
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Well, I'd hope nobody would have to be certified in anything to call 911 if they were witness to a medical emergency.
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Old March 6 2013, 10:17 PM   #38
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

scotpens wrote: View Post
URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue"]Excerpted from Wiki:[/URL]

In the common law of most anglosphere countries, there is no general duty to come to the rescue of another. Generally, a person cannot be held liable for doing nothing while another person is in peril. However, such a duty may arise in two situations: (cut)
This surprised me, because here in Italy failing to provide assistance (i.e. calling the cops or an ambulance) is a criminal offence. Reading the article, the divide seems to be common law (UK and US) vs. civil law (continental Europe). Weird.

scotpens wrote: View Post
You can educate people but you can't compel them to help one another, any more than you can force people to love one another.
But you can compel them to call 911 if they witness an emergency. You don't need to love for that, just a cell phone.
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Old March 6 2013, 10:48 PM   #39
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Shanndee wrote: View Post
When I was CPR certified we were told that we were obligated to try to give aid. That meant that we were obligated to call 911.
Perhaps that's what I'm thinking of.
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Old March 7 2013, 12:10 AM   #40
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Shanndee wrote: View Post
When I was CPR certified we were told that we were obligated to try to give aid. That meant that we were obligated to call 911.
Perhaps that's what I'm thinking of.
I was always instructed that if you BEGIN providing CPR, you were obligated to continue until relieved by a Doctor/EMT/Paramedic, or by another CPR certified person. As a person who is not medically licensed, you are not capable of making the determination on your own whether or not it is safe to stop providing CPR. You are under no obligation if you never begin providing CPR.

This incident happened in my town, and just down the road from where I live. From the articles I've seen on the local news and in the local paper, the family very much wants this issue put to rest and is adamant that this is what their mother would have wanted. I feel we should respect their wishes.
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Old March 7 2013, 05:19 AM   #41
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Tighr , you're in B-field? We just went through there going back to Fresno from LA, stopping at Dewars. Small world!

Back on topic, Alidar would be useful, since I've managed to forget most of what I learned in law school. But as noted by a poster above, no duty to help a stranger exists unless a special duty exists or you created the danger.

In this case, there is (as usual) conflicting information in the news: there is a DNR on file, there isn't; there's policy against CPR, there isn't; this was a skilled nursing facility, it was a communal living center not providing medical care; etc.

There are lots of questions, including whether the woman/family aware that the lack of medical care included no CPR under emergency situations--but this may be negated by the fact that (supposedly) the family has stated that they and the woman were aware of this and it was fine with them. It appears there's no case here as only the family is a party with standing to sue. Dont blame all lawyers: Decent lawyers don't troll for clients; blame the clients' greed--and shitty lawyers who agree to take them on.

A positive outcome would be legal clarification of the status of the various types of elder-care facilities and their respective duties to the persons staying there, and their families. Now, likely, this would be on a state-by-state basis, which different laws in each state, because such facilities appear to be state-regulated, not federally-regulated. I believe there are some federal laws regarding elder care, but I know nothing on the subject.
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Old March 7 2013, 12:24 PM   #42
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

There's no DNR on file that's been pretty much confirmed. It has been said that this is "how she would have wanted it" or something like that but that brings up a discussion about what "DNR" means, something a friend and I were talking about the other day.

On that, he training to be a firefighter and has gone through all of the medical-aid classes. One of the things he said that when it comes to DNRs you have to see it to follow it otherwise you work to save the person's life. It's better to get in trouble for saving them than to get into trouble for NOT saving them.

I see this as the same case here people are SAYING that this is what the woman would have wanted but there's no paper to back that up so we only have word of mouth to go on. That shouldn't be good enough when it comes to any investigation on this from the side of the police and authorities. (If the family is satisfied that settles the civil issues.)

If she had a DNR the woman could have said that on the phone, "she has a DNR" but instead she was worried about how long it'd take the ambulance to get there (why worry about that when they can't do anything either?) So the issue he is really the nurses' refusal to save this woman's life. Which they're pretty much duty bound to do being in the medical profession looking at a woman dying and she has no paperwork backing up her wishes when it comes to life-saving procedures.
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Old March 8 2013, 01:17 AM   #43
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

My sister had to tell the hospital that my mother had a DNR when the emergency department at our hospital wanted to resuscitate. My mother had provided her doctor and the hospital with a form (I gather the emergency department hadn't yet checked her record),she also carried another signed DNR form in her handbag which my sister was able to show to my brother who wanted to hospital to attempt resuscitation.

Unless a health worker knows there is a legally binding DNR I thin they should be legally bound to rescusciate. This family agreed with the nurse this time, with the next family it might be the opposite.
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Old March 8 2013, 03:31 AM   #44
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

Reports indicate this nurse, though licensed, was working in the capacity as an administrator, not as a health worker.
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Old March 8 2013, 03:35 AM   #45
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Re: 911 Operater Pleads With Nursing Home Nurse to Save a Life

tighr wrote: View Post
Reports indicate this nurse, though licensed, was working in the capacity as an administrator, not as a health worker.
Regardless. She's a nurse. Trained in CPR as part of her job and should be duty bound to save a life that is slipping away in front of her very eyes.
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