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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old March 4 2013, 09:19 PM   #676
Sindatur
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

War Without End is an excellent 2 parter, glad you really liked it. Lots of layers pulled back with this one, but, many layers underneath still.

Regarding the price you paid, those of us who bought them early on, paid Trek prices for them. I think I paid $70 a season for them, and that was after they had gone down some
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Old March 5 2013, 01:45 AM   #677
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Stuff like that was expensive in the beginning. Years ago, I remember seeing a season of Enterprise being sold for some outrageous amount of money at Wal-Mart. It was so expensive, it had a HUGE anti-theft thing on it. I'm glad B5 has gotten cheaper, and that seasons of most shows aren't too badly priced anymore (although Star Trek is still a bit pricey for my budget, I only own DS9 season 4 and VOY season 3 right now).
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Old March 5 2013, 05:03 AM   #678
Snatcher42
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Yup, $90 a pop for those B5 sets back in the day... glad the price has come down so much, allowing more people to enjoy the show!

For me, War Without End is the pivot point of the whole series. Severed Dreams may neatly divide the show in half, but War Without End closes many storylines of the early Seasons while starting new ones that play through right to the very end.

That said, the best is still to come!
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Old March 6 2013, 01:10 PM   #679
Aeon
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
War Without End Part 1 - Its nice to see Sinclair back for a guest appearance. Is his voice/way of speaking different? He sounds weird, although that might just be because its been awhile since I've seen him.
The portrayal is definitely different from the season one Sinclair. He acts more like a zen monk, somewhat at peace while working towards a goal bigger than himself. I suppose living on Minbar for over a year changes a man quite a bit.
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Old March 6 2013, 08:04 PM   #680
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

War Without End Part 2 - Another great episode, but with a big flaw (that doesn't effect my enjoyment of this episode, but messes up the rest of the show from now until the end). The future Sheridan visits is very screwed up. If this future is unavoidable (and they say outright that it is), that sucks. Why set the future in stone? Now I know, whatever happens, that Londo and the centauri are screwed, and Sheridan can literally do nothing. Londo will just keep going until he becomes emperor, and a puppet of the shadows, then he'll be killed by G'Kar. Knowing how stuff like that means that there will be no more suspense with Londo. I know what happens to him (and it sucks) and, while he's still awesome, he now doesn't even have the chance of redemption in the show, since we know he stays with the shadows now until right before he dies. This was just a horrible idea, and its the first time I can say that, in my opinion atleast, JMS screwed up big time. I mean, you can still wonder what "sacrifices" it will take for them to beat the shadows, but you know, for sure, that they win, and do it fairly well. How would you do this? I mean, I always assumed that B5 wouldn't end with everyone dead and the shadows winning, but ruining Londo's whole story arc is just stupid, and outright saying everything turns out well in general is also stupid.

Besides that, this episode itself was good. I liked how it tied in to the first B4 episode from season 1. I figured Sinclair would go to the past, but turning into a Minbari and being revealed as valen was interesting, and a nice send off for him. The two vorlons with him when he revealed himself to the minbari was cool. Overall, this was a good two parter, but with bad consequences for the rest of the show. I can just hope that JMS uses the power of ignoring continuity and does change the future (which he would have to do, since they literally left themselves with no way to change the future without contradicting what they've already said). I'll still really enjoy Babylon 5, its an awesome show. But, going forward, at the very least everything with my favorite character is colored by the fact that I know how his character arc ends already. I just wish I knew why JMS thought it was a good idea. Is Londo about to leave the show? Did his actor hint at wanting to leave, so in case he did leave they did this so you'd already know what happens to him if they have to write him out of the show? I don't know, it just seems like doing this does nothing to help the show, and just removes all the suspense from an ongoing character plot.
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Old March 6 2013, 08:36 PM   #681
Sindatur
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Don't assume you know everything, there are a number of surprises coming in Londo's and G'Kar's arcs.

JMS doesn't mind showing you the ending, considers the "how" you got there at least as important as where you go

A Prequel TV Movie In the Beginning, contains some spoilers up through S4, but, he has often recommended it as a Starting point, instead of The Gathering

You've known for a long time that G'Kar kills Londo, this is why Londo has such an aggresive relationship with G'Kar, even over and above G'Kar being a Narn. Londo has always known, from the first time he saw G'Kar's face that G'Kar was the man of his dreams.
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Old March 6 2013, 09:03 PM   #682
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Don't assume you know everything,
this. you still have a loooooooooooong way to go Mr Kirk.
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Old March 6 2013, 11:25 PM   #683
Jan
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
War Without End Part 2 - If this future is unavoidable (and they say outright that it is), that sucks. Why set the future in stone? Now I know, whatever happens, that Londo and the centauri are screwed, and Sheridan can literally do nothing. Londo will just keep going until he becomes emperor, and a puppet of the shadows, then he'll be killed by G'Kar. Knowing how stuff like that means that there will be no more suspense with Londo.
You've known how Londo dies since the very first episode you saw. You've known that Londo would become Emperor for several episodes, too. Knowing what happens doesn't mean you know all there is to know. On B5, it's the journey that counts. And there's a lot more of Londo and G'kar's journey to see. Will Londo find redemption as Lady Morella says he has three opportunities to look for?

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Old March 6 2013, 11:42 PM   #684
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

^What they've said. There is a lot more to the story than just what we saw. I really don't mind these kinds of looks into the future on shows like this. Even if we are shown a definitely future, it can still be interesting seeing how that future came about. We had a whole season with flash forwards on Lost, and I still found the story interesting. Hell, we had show entire focused on a vision of the future, but since we didn't know what led to those events, the show still managed to tell an (IMO) interesting story.
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Old March 7 2013, 01:42 AM   #685
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Yeah, how Londo was going to die was stated in the very first episode of the first season. There's still not enough information to know exactly how Londo and Centauri Prime got to this state; that's in seasons four and five, so stick around for the Londo ride; there's still plenty of twists and turns coming on that particular roller coaster.
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Old March 7 2013, 01:42 AM   #686
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Well, he obviously either a) doesn't find redemption or b) his redemption is saving Sheridan and delenn from himself at the end. I was really hoping the psychic woman was full of it. Having the actual future told seemed like an idiotic plot point. Also, I don't care that G'Kar kills Londo. What I do care about is knowing that Londo will never stop being an ally with the shadows until about 17 years after the events of B5, and only then after his world is trashed. He doesn't even have the opportunity to have a change of heart, which is all I want. Even if he ends up not learning his lesson, I atleast wanted the chance that he could turn from the dark path he set out on. Now, I know he definately won't. I really wish I had skipped these episodes. They were good, but not worth ruining Londo's story arc. Are there any other episodes that tell the future? I legitimately want to know, because I want to skip them (and I haven't wanted to skip any B5 until now). I'm actually pretty angry about this. If I wanted spoilers, I'd look online. I didn't know that some episodes of the actual show needed a spoiler warning
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Old March 7 2013, 01:43 AM   #687
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Yeah, just to echo to what everyone else is saying--Context. Matters.

Also, with B5 you should always remember what G'Kar said to Sakai way back in 'Mind War': "No one here is exactly what he appears. Not Mollari, not Delenn, not Sinclair .. and not me." True to form, by this point in the show we know who and what Sinclair & Delenn turned out to be and now we get to begin to find out who Londo and G'Kar really are.

As for Sinclair's changed manner, yes, he is more at peace and no longer haunted by his past as he once was. A lot happened to him on Minbar, a story which incidentally is told in the canon novel 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows'. For a tie-in novel it's pretty good. Basically, it follows Sinclair, Sakai & Marcus from around the start of season two, up until the start of season 3, showing how the Rangers were revitalized from an ancient relic of an order--a quite embarrassment to the warrior caste, mostly made up of a scant handful of old men, only kept around only out of respect for it's history--into the effective fighting force we see on the show.
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Old March 7 2013, 01:59 AM   #688
JoeD80
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
What I do care about is knowing that Londo will never stop being an ally with the shadows until about 17 years after the events of B5, and only then after his world is trashed. He doesn't even have the opportunity to have a change of heart, which is all I want. Even if he ends up not learning his lesson, I atleast wanted the chance that he could turn from the dark path he set out on. Now, I know he definately won't. They were good, but not worth ruining Londo's story arc.
They don't ruin his arc; what actually happens is quite different from what you are assuming. That stuff is in the next two seasons (and a bit of stuff coming here in season three.)
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Old March 7 2013, 02:13 AM   #689
kirk55555
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Reverend wrote: View Post
Yeah, just to echo to what everyone else is saying--Context. Matters.

Also, with B5 you should always remember what G'Kar said to Sakai way back in 'Mind War': "No one here is exactly what he appears. Not Mollari, not Delenn, not Sinclair .. and not me." True to form, by this point in the show we know who and what Sinclair & Delenn turned out to be and now we get to begin to find out who Londo and G'Kar really are.
Well, we're not really beginning to find out who Londo is anymore, and thats my problem. I wanted to learn what would happen to Londo over the course of the rest of the show. Now, I know, and it makes every appearance of his from now on pointless. There is no mystery about what he'll do. He'll side with the shadows until the very end. The only question is how G'Kar got into his palace to kill him, but at this point I'll just assume he was Londo's slave. Either that, or he gained the ability to teleport. Why not? It fits the stupidity of these sections.
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Old March 7 2013, 02:20 AM   #690
Snatcher42
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Well, he obviously either a) doesn't find redemption or b) his redemption is saving Sheridan and delenn from himself at the end.
Well, I think "b" is partially true, but then there's also option c) his redemption involves something you haven't seen yet, but still fits into this continuity. JMS' own quote on the matter:

It's a literary...I hate to say the word trick, but it's the most descriptive. You show somebody the end right off the bat, as we did with the Londo/G'Kar scene. But how do we get there? What happens? Yes, the war is eventually won...but what *was* the price? And what does it mean to everyone involved? The best magic is when it's right there in your face, and you can't see how it's being done.
That said, I do think there might be some episode of Season 5 you won't love... and I'm not talking about the weak early half.

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
There is no mystery about what he'll do. He'll side with the shadows until the very end. The only question is how G'Kar got into his palace to kill him, but at this point I'll just assume he was Londo's slave.
Aaah, so hard to respond to this without spoilers! All I can say is keep watching, it's not what you think (hope that itself isn't a spoiler). And there might be a few clues in this very episode.
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