10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged - Page 4

theblitz · February 11 2013, 02:39 PM

As a "converted" DS9 viewer;

When I first saw DS9 I didn't like it simply because you would get lost if you tried to see the odd episode here or there.

This is not just due to the long-runing arc but also to the complexity of the characters and their interaction.

On TNG (NOT one of my favourites) the characters were much easier to follow. Interactions were far shallower so it was easy to pop-in for an odd episode here or there.

Their is no question that once you watch DS9 in order it is a completely different world.

BillJ · February 11 2013, 07:08 PM

theblitz wrote:

As a "converted" DS9 viewer;

When I first saw DS9 I didn't like it simply because you would get lost if you tried to see the odd episode here or there.

This is not just due to the long-runing arc but also to the complexity of the characters and their interaction.

On TNG (NOT one of my favourites) the characters were much easier to follow. Interactions were far shallower so it was easy to pop-in for an odd episode here or there.

Their is no question that once you watch DS9 in order it is a completely different world.

Everyone is different...

I was probably watching six to eight episodes a season (after the first year) and never felt lost when tuning into DS9. At its core it's Star Trek and even though it had a bit more in the way of straight serialization, it was still episodic in nature for most of its run.

MacLeod · February 11 2013, 07:13 PM

And even serialised shows sometimes use the plot device "Previously on ..... " where the viewer is shown albeit very briefly things that occured in previous episodes that are saliant to the episode.

BillJ · February 11 2013, 07:18 PM

MacLeod wrote:

And even serialised shows sometimes use the plot device "Previously on ..... " where the viewer is shown albeit very briefly things that occured in previous episodes that are saliant to the episode.

Right.

I never bought the notion that you had to watch every episode of a serialized show or none at all.

theblitz · February 25 2013, 11:49 AM

I always find that the "previously ..." is more for the people who actually watched it.
To remind them what happened last and to place the current episode in perspective.

I'm nto saying that you can't want DS9 bits at a time out of order but watching it in order changes it completely whereas witht he other series it doesn't make much of a difference.

heavy lids · February 25 2013, 02:01 PM

JirinPanthosa wrote:

I was 10 when DS9 started.

I didn't like it because I disagreed with its philosophy.

I find it hard to believe that a 10 year old would have a philosophical problem with a television show.

the Sisko · March 2 2013, 09:17 PM

I also think they miss it.

Deep Space Nine was about 10-15 years too early for television and slightly out of order for the star trek series development.

It had a cast that was very diverse... much more than most shows of its era (or now)... with a black male leader, alien female second and third officers and an arab doctor. This, while wonderful for those who watched, doesn't bring in the largest audiences.

It moved away from happy endings and morality tales to long standing drama. If you watch a Nikita, Scandal, Once upon a time Hawaii Five O or a Blue Bloods today and there are long-standing plot lines and character arcs. There are imperfect heroes making imperfect decisions with complex situations compared to the Pre-DS9 invincibility of a Starfleet Captain's decision-making.

It's almost as if Voyager should have come first... so the alien of the week genre could have played out and Deep Space Nine would have felt or been invested into like a relaunch of Trek for the 21st century. As it stands... star trek quickly returned after DS9 (and during with the voyager run) to the Next Generation formula

HaventGotALife · March 3 2013, 03:21 PM

Let me first say that I am in no way trivializing what happened on September 11th. 3,000 people died and two of the longest wars in our history has been waged. Islamic Extreme Terrorism is the Communism of our day. We are in jeopardy because of an attack on the mainland. My family has personally been affected by losing someone to this war, a soldier. And he signed up for duty after September 11th. The rest of this post assumes that the events were unavoidable and, therefore, set in stone.

Part of me wishes that Deep Space Nine had premiered after 9/11. I think the show would've been more timely and it would've had higher ratings. I think this because my opinions of the show now are based largely on the fact that I lived, as 17-year-old, through that event. I heard about his friends and acquaintances going off to war. Feeling the terror of a potential existential threat from a foreign invader, and dealing with the fear and anxiety of never wanting to have another attack.

As Communism changed Ronald Reagan in the 1960s, I changed my beliefs, became more liberal, after September 11th. I realized the judicious use of power, the effect of terrorism on a society (and yes, it can be effective), and the tension between a free and open society versus safety and the rule of law. Those who experienced this time as adults, as I did, were changed completely by it. I remember my reaction to the bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. I am ashamed of that view because of what happened after September 11th. I claimed it was people in foreign lands, they had signed up to be in danger. That's what I thought. And even as Bin Laden had struck at the US, was on the FBI's most wanted list, it didn't strike me as something that could cause me to be touched by it personally. There was NO political will to get Bin Laden in 1993-2000. And I was a part of that. It doesn't wake me in cold sweats anymore, but I still get angry with myself.

Deep Space Nine touches on all of those topics. From trying to make peace with our enemy early on, to what that peace would look like, what we do to ourselves in the name of defense, when war is acceptable, how we wage that war, and what we are willing to do to win it. It is incredible to watch and it is dazzling that it was able to so fully flesh out the issues without having an event in our lives that made them relevant.

Part of me is glad they weren't on the air. Aaron Sorkin has spoken about how timid NBC became over stories he wished to air. His last episode on West Wing, a show that never touched more than passingly on terrorism until after September 11th, was a cliffhanger--the President's daughter has been taken and President Bartlet resigns via the 25th Amendment, putting the most powerful Republican in charge (no Vice President because of a sex scandal) because he doesn't want to make a decision as a grieving father with the powers of the Presidency.

In season 5, the second episode, Zoe Bartlet is found and she was abducted by Islamic extremists. The episodes were written by John Wells. Sorkin's story was that Zoe had been taken by Extremist Christians. He fought for the story, from what I know, and he left because it was censored.

The same thing could've happened to Deep Space Nine with regards to the Bajorans, and the thinly-veiled social problem would've been more blunt. They were creating this, not ripping from the headlines. That is why I am glad it came before September 11th.

All in all, it remains my second favorite series and the one I have thought about, even gone as far as trying to write an 8th season, because it is so relevant in my life.

DalekJim · March 3 2013, 04:11 PM

HaventGotALife wrote:

Let me first say that I am in no way trivializing what happened on September 11th. 3,000 people died and two of the longest wars in our history has been waged. Islamic Extreme Terrorism is the Communism of our day.

Disagree, they're worse. Communists had an ideology rooted in reality at least.

To address your point more fully, I agree DS9 was too ahead of its time, although I don't get much of a post-9/11 vibe from it. I definitely think if DS9 was made soon after 9/11 they'd be less willing to have a religious fanatic terrorist like Kira as one of the main characters.

Nagisa Furukawa · March 3 2013, 06:50 PM

theblitz wrote:

As a "converted" DS9 viewer;

When I first saw DS9 I didn't like it simply because you would get lost if you tried to see the odd episode here or there.

This is not just due to the long-runing arc but also to the complexity of the characters and their interaction.

On TNG (NOT one of my favourites) the characters were much easier to follow. Interactions were far shallower so it was easy to pop-in for an odd episode here or there.

Their is no question that once you watch DS9 in order it is a completely different world.

It's interesting how for years this was pretty much the default position for network executives about serialized storytelling, that most people aren't going to catch ep after ep, so things must be simplified. But now in the age of DVD boxsets, online streaming, DVR recordings, the public is MUCH more receptive to the idea of TV being watched in a particular order like the chapters in a book.

IMO this is a wonderful thing. The old format was an absolute drama killer and held TV back from its full dramatic potential for decades and decades. You used the word "shallower" and that's precisely what it is. It's more than possible to get amazing, excellent standalones out of that format, but nigh impossible to get genuinely interesting characters who change and grow and develop.

CrazyMatt · March 3 2013, 07:28 PM

At first, I didn't really like DS9, but I did watch it... and grew to love it. It became my favorite of all the newer series... I used to wonder why that was... then it suddenly struck me. The 'feel' of DS9 is more like TOS than TNG,VOY or ENT.. by feel I mean the intensity, the intimacy, the grit... TNG had some, the others had little, only DS9 had all. Plus, I loved the way they created such a large ensemble where every character had a legitimate, uncontrived piece of the dramatic pie.

February 11 2013, 02:39 PM	#46
theblitz Lieutenant Commander Location: Israel	Re: 10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged As a "converted" DS9 viewer; When I first saw DS9 I didn't like it simply because you would get lost if you tried to see the odd episode here or there. This is not just due to the long-runing arc but also to the complexity of the characters and their interaction. On TNG (NOT one of my favourites) the characters were much easier to follow. Interactions were far shallower so it was easy to pop-in for an odd episode here or there. Their is no question that once you watch DS9 in order it is a completely different world.

February 11 2013, 07:13 PM	#48
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: 10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged And even serialised shows sometimes use the plot device "Previously on ..... " where the viewer is shown albeit very briefly things that occured in previous episodes that are saliant to the episode. __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

February 25 2013, 11:49 AM	#50
theblitz Lieutenant Commander Location: Israel	Re: 10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged I always find that the "previously ..." is more for the people who actually watched it. To remind them what happened last and to place the current episode in perspective. I'm nto saying that you can't want DS9 bits at a time out of order but watching it in order changes it completely whereas witht he other series it doesn't make much of a difference.

March 2 2013, 09:17 PM	#52
the Sisko Commander Location: Philadelphia, PA	Re: 10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged I also think they miss it. Deep Space Nine was about 10-15 years too early for television and slightly out of order for the star trek series development. It had a cast that was very diverse... much more than most shows of its era (or now)... with a black male leader, alien female second and third officers and an arab doctor. This, while wonderful for those who watched, doesn't bring in the largest audiences. It moved away from happy endings and morality tales to long standing drama. If you watch a Nikita, Scandal, Once upon a time Hawaii Five O or a Blue Bloods today and there are long-standing plot lines and character arcs. There are imperfect heroes making imperfect decisions with complex situations compared to the Pre-DS9 invincibility of a Starfleet Captain's decision-making. It's almost as if Voyager should have come first... so the alien of the week genre could have played out and Deep Space Nine would have felt or been invested into like a relaunch of Trek for the 21st century. As it stands... star trek quickly returned after DS9 (and during with the voyager run) to the Next Generation formula

March 3 2013, 03:21 PM	#53
HaventGotALife Captain Location: Michigan	Re: 10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged Let me first say that I am in no way trivializing what happened on September 11th. 3,000 people died and two of the longest wars in our history has been waged. Islamic Extreme Terrorism is the Communism of our day. We are in jeopardy because of an attack on the mainland. My family has personally been affected by losing someone to this war, a soldier. And he signed up for duty after September 11th. The rest of this post assumes that the events were unavoidable and, therefore, set in stone. Part of me wishes that Deep Space Nine had premiered after 9/11. I think the show would've been more timely and it would've had higher ratings. I think this because my opinions of the show now are based largely on the fact that I lived, as 17-year-old, through that event. I heard about his friends and acquaintances going off to war. Feeling the terror of a potential existential threat from a foreign invader, and dealing with the fear and anxiety of never wanting to have another attack. As Communism changed Ronald Reagan in the 1960s, I changed my beliefs, became more liberal, after September 11th. I realized the judicious use of power, the effect of terrorism on a society (and yes, it can be effective), and the tension between a free and open society versus safety and the rule of law. Those who experienced this time as adults, as I did, were changed completely by it. I remember my reaction to the bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. I am ashamed of that view because of what happened after September 11th. I claimed it was people in foreign lands, they had signed up to be in danger. That's what I thought. And even as Bin Laden had struck at the US, was on the FBI's most wanted list, it didn't strike me as something that could cause me to be touched by it personally. There was NO political will to get Bin Laden in 1993-2000. And I was a part of that. It doesn't wake me in cold sweats anymore, but I still get angry with myself. Deep Space Nine touches on all of those topics. From trying to make peace with our enemy early on, to what that peace would look like, what we do to ourselves in the name of defense, when war is acceptable, how we wage that war, and what we are willing to do to win it. It is incredible to watch and it is dazzling that it was able to so fully flesh out the issues without having an event in our lives that made them relevant. Part of me is glad they weren't on the air. Aaron Sorkin has spoken about how timid NBC became over stories he wished to air. His last episode on West Wing, a show that never touched more than passingly on terrorism until after September 11th, was a cliffhanger--the President's daughter has been taken and President Bartlet resigns via the 25th Amendment, putting the most powerful Republican in charge (no Vice President because of a sex scandal) because he doesn't want to make a decision as a grieving father with the powers of the Presidency. In season 5, the second episode, Zoe Bartlet is found and she was abducted by Islamic extremists. The episodes were written by John Wells. Sorkin's story was that Zoe had been taken by Extremist Christians. He fought for the story, from what I know, and he left because it was censored. The same thing could've happened to Deep Space Nine with regards to the Bajorans, and the thinly-veiled social problem would've been more blunt. They were creating this, not ripping from the headlines. That is why I am glad it came before September 11th. All in all, it remains my second favorite series and the one I have thought about, even gone as far as trying to write an 8th season, because it is so relevant in my life. __________________ To me, Star Trek's stories are about the depth and complexity of human relationships. It studies us and asks us to look within ourselves, to relate, to ask how would we respond to all that is in their world?

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March 3 2013, 07:28 PM	#56
CrazyMatt Lieutenant Location: Paradise	Re: 10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged At first, I didn't really like DS9, but I did watch it... and grew to love it. It became my favorite of all the newer series... I used to wonder why that was... then it suddenly struck me. The 'feel' of DS9 is more like TOS than TNG,VOY or ENT.. by feel I mean the intensity, the intimacy, the grit... TNG had some, the others had little, only DS9 had all. Plus, I loved the way they created such a large ensemble where every character had a legitimate, uncontrived piece of the dramatic pie.