TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[DalekJim]

The finale is a mixed bag but it's satisfying enough. 'All Good Things...' is definitely better written and structured but it didn't really give TNG closure. DS9's finale always gives me the feeling I get when I finish a really good book.

[Deranged Nasat]

DalekJim wrote:

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The finale is a mixed bag but it's satisfying enough. 'All Good Things...' is definitely better written and structured but it didn't really give TNG closure. DS9's finale always gives me the feeling I get when I finish a really good book.

I suppose part of it was the knowledge that TNG would be returning soon on the movie screen, whereas DS9's finale truly was the end.

[DonIago]

I'm not sure I'd argue that AGT was necessarily better written. It's certainly clever, but it kind of bugs me that the finale of the show showcases Picard at the expense of the other characters and features a largely reset-button ending.

Admittedly this isn't helped by the direction the movies took.

[Worf'sParmach]

I remember feeling more "satisfied" after seeing AGT in 1994. Going back to the beginning, seeing Q, Yar and O'Brien was fun, as was seeing everything in the future. It was definitely a formulaic TNG adventure of the week episode, but it worked.

Fast-forward to 1999, watching WYLB didn't leave me with that same feeling. Overall I liked it, it definitely had a more final feel which was sad. I loved the montages (except for the glaring ommission of Jadzia) but the Sisko/Winn/Dukat thing bugged me so much that I can't say I loved the episode.

So to me AGT was better because it was a perfect episode for TNG. WYLB was very DS9 and brought closure to long running storylines BUT the missteps in that episode are hard to overlook.

[DalekJim]

You can tell the writers cared way more about the character goodbyes and sentimentality than the plot which is a shame. DS9 is so good because of its excellent plot arcs so it's a shame the finale doesn't really wrap up the show's main storyline very well.

Not having Bajor join the Federation was also absurd as it was like.. part of the premise of the show? Thankfully the novels sort that out .

Still, WYLB is superior to the NuBSG finale. DS9 suffers from overtly simplified religious stuff but that element killed NuBSG stone dead.

[Seven of Five]

TheGodBen wrote:

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Then I start my long-awaited Golden Girls review thread.

Woo! About freaking time.



















(And also graphs are nice too.)

[flemm]

DonIago wrote:

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I'm not sure I'd argue that AGT was necessarily better written. It's certainly clever, but it kind of bugs me that the finale of the show showcases Picard at the expense of the other characters and features a largely reset-button ending.

It's a finale that certainly fits the show, in ways both good and bad. If the Pah Wraith thing had been handled better, I think I would not hesitate to call WYLB the better finale, though, but mostly because DS9 had gone so much further as a saga by that point than TNG ever really did.

The Pah Wraith business is enough of a misstep that one can certainly hesitate, I think. But, personally, I enjoy WYLB significantly more.

[Sykonee]

TheGodBen wrote:

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Next up is the season 7 review, with graphs. Then a proper series review, with bigger graphs. Then I start my long-awaited Golden Girls review thread.

No, it mustn't end like this. Let the thread live on by reviewing all the Relaunch novels.

I mean, it can't be any worse than enduring Crusade was.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

I started DS9 on January 1st this year and just finished WYLB two months (and a day, grrr) later. Overall, it was quite good, but I do have some issues.

TheGodBen wrote:

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I know that some men just wanting to watch the world burn is a common trope in genre storytelling, but did the resolution to the Pah-wraith arc really have to be so cheesy? The Pah-wraiths don't seem to have a purpose other than to be evil and want to kill everyone, and their conflict with the Prophets has no depth to it. It's a black and white tale of a race of evil supernatural beings that hate everything, and a race of friendly supernatural beings that want to stop them. When the Prophets were introduced, they were presented as a truly alien race that allowed Star Trek to explore some harder sci-fi material than normal, as well as the human ability to dwell on past suffering. It wasn't high art, but it was trying to do something more than your standard space opera. It's a pity it all descended into this madness.

Adding insult to injury, the final confrontation between Sisko and Dukat is just lame. Firstly, Sisko's reason for going to the Fire Caves is because his spidey-sense tingled. When he gets there, Dukat magics him up a little while gloating, then they both fall into a fiery cavern. So Sisko's great trial was to lunge at a guy? Couldn't the Prophets have just sent Sisko the message to burn that book 4 years ago? This is an anticlimactic, nonsensical end to a story that had a lot of potential, but which didn't develop properly.

Completely agree. Felt like a total joke to me, especially compared to the Vorlon/Shadow conflict on B5.

I don't like the way it actually happened, but I do like the idea of Sisko joining the Prophets, it just feels right somehow. His faith in the Prophets has been slowly growing throughout the series to the point where he is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. Personally, I prefer to think that Sisko is trapped in the Celestial Temple for eternity and that is the penance and great sorrow he was warned about, but the ending is open enough for fans to also imagine that he will return one day should they wish to do so.

Yeah, I agree that I like the general idea of Sisko-joining-the-Prophets, but I have a few big problems with the execution of this.

One, the whole pregnancy storyline should've been left out for the same reason the Defiant 2.0 should've been; it comes too close to the end to actually mean anything. The only things it affects are one's ep cliffhanger and then Kassidy being sick at the beginning of the next one. All it does is muddle and confuse the "Sisko decides to stay with the Prophets" issue, especially since I think...

Two, Sisko should've explicitly been said to remain there permanently, as you believe. The idea that he can return (presumably put in because of the baby storyline, maybe because they didn't think audiences would accept a captain dying in the finale, I don't know) just cheapens the impact. Like Sheridian jumping into Z'ha'dum, there must be a sacrifice and it must be permanent. "Sisko remains with the Prophets forever" has soooooo much more impact than "Sisko goes on holiday with the Prophets."

And the big one...

Three, it should've been Jake, damnit. Kassidy's an okay love interest, but she's not REALLY that interesting of a character. I don't hate her or anything... but for Sisko's last scene? For his goodbye to the mortal world and everything he loves? No. Should've been Jake, and more than that, it shouldn't have been in a cliche white void; it should've been on the pier, the same pier they shared their first scene together on. If THAT scene had happened, Sisko appearing to Jake on in the wormhole-version of the pier and telling him he won't be coming back... I would've cried, no doubt. As it was, the scene didn't have anywhere near that impact.

[Supernuke]

Thanks for doing this, TheGodBen! I didn't look at every one of your reviews but I did stop by from time to time. I found your reviews to be insightful and very interesting. I'm sure it was very time consuming as well, so thanks again.

[Skywalker]

Looking forward to the ever-popular graphs and your final thoughts, GodBen! As always, it's been a lot of fun following your review thread.

So...Farscape next?

[Deranged Nasat]

Skywalker wrote:

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So...Farscape next?

We can only hope.

[HaventGotALife]

Supernuke wrote:

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Thanks for doing this, TheGodBen! I didn't look at every one of your reviews but I did stop by from time to time. I found your reviews to be insightful and very interesting. I'm sure it was very time consuming as well, so thanks again.

And he did it for free. It was very interesting as I was re-watching some of the episodes to come in here and fight such bright and insightful commentary. I also learned a thing or two about the show behind the show. Just an amazing piece of work, one of the best threads I have seen in my 10 years of being on any message board anywhere. You are obviously very gifted, TheGodBen. I hope you find some other outlet for this now that you have watched the entire series.

[TheGodBen]

Sykonee wrote:

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No, it mustn't end like this. Let the thread live on by reviewing all the Relaunch novels.

I mean, it can't be any worse than enduring Crusade was.

Star Trek novels have never worked for me. It has nothing to do with the quality of them, but novels get inside the head of characters more than TV shows do, and that's weird for me when reading about characters I think I know. It's like when they do a film adaptation of a book you love and the actor plays the character differently than you had imagined in your head, but in reverse.

Nagisa Furukawa wrote:

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Two, Sisko should've explicitly been said to remain there permanently, as you believe. The idea that he can return (presumably put in because of the baby storyline, maybe because they didn't think audiences would accept a captain dying in the finale, I don't know) just cheapens the impact.

According to MA, the original version of the scene was like that and Sisko was trapped with the Prophets for eternity, but Avery Brooks was uncomfortable with it because he feared some in the audience would see it as a brown man abandoning his pregnant wife. When he explained his concerns to the writers, they rewrote and reshot the scene with Kasidy to include a promise to return some day. Avery Brooks may have been right that a black role model like Sisko shouldn't end the series that way while those stereotypes still exist, so I don't fault him for that, but I prefer a more ambiguous interpretation of the ending.

As for Jake, it is a little weird that Sisko doesn't say goodbye to his son, but I feel that the lack of a goodbye scene maybe adds a little something to that final shot of Jake looking out the window. That lack of closure is similar to what he went through in The Visitor, to which that shot is a visual callback.

Deranged Nasat wrote:

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We can only hope.

Farscape is tempting as I know absolutely nothing about it, but doing a first-timer thread is a bit weird. If I were to redo my B5 thread now, I would rerate a number of episodes (some up, some down) because my knowledge of future arcs would affect my feelings about things.

HaventGotALife wrote:

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And he did it for free. It was very interesting as I was re-watching some of the episodes to come in here and fight such bright and insightful commentary. I also learned a thing or two about the show behind the show. Just an amazing piece of work, one of the best threads I have seen in my 10 years of being on any message board anywhere. You are obviously very gifted, TheGodBen. I hope you find some other outlet for this now that you have watched the entire series.

Thanks. Although, I'd substitute the word 'gifted' with 'obsessive'.

I'll probably do more threads in the future, but I have no definitive plan. I was thinking of maybe TNG, but people seem to want Farscape, and I'm easily pressured into doing things other people suggest. Hence my meth addiction.

[apenpaap]

I would enjoy reading your views on TNG most.