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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 26 2013, 12:43 AM   #31
RAMA
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post

Same as what Kirk did to various super-threats, then?

refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.
It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.
I agree, defeating the Borg was never effortless.

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Old February 28 2013, 04:16 AM   #32
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

The Borg are creepy to me because of the idea that they can take away your individuality and turn you into a cold blooded cyborg. The loss of ego. The loss of "I am" is a terrifying prospect. At least to me.

Now if only ST crossed over with Animorphs, and we had Yeerk controlled Borg walking around...YIKES!
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Old February 28 2013, 05:13 PM   #33
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

RAMA wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.
It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.
I agree, defeating the Borg was never effortless.


maybe not, but Trek went from one Borg Cube nearly conquering the Federation to one SHUTTLECRAFT penetrating a Borg base and defeating them. How the mighty had fallen.
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Old February 28 2013, 05:19 PM   #34
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

That's no worse than a bunch of Dominion Bug Fighters taking out a Galaxy-Class Starship on their own, to a Galaxy Class Starship being able to wipe the floor with Dominion Bug Fighters.

Frankly, I thought One Cube being able to do all it did, was kind of silly.
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Old March 1 2013, 07:04 PM   #35
Gone4aDuck
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

[/QUOTE]refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.[/QUOTE]

He sure as hell couldn't defeat his tailor. Man those shirts ripped easily. Whoever made those uniforms should have been court marshalled!
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Old March 2 2013, 02:35 PM   #36
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

As conceived in Q Who they're something like the perfect enemy - "the ultimate user". Interested not in the people of the Federation but their technology. It paid off nicely in BOBW but after that - once assimilating people became their entire MO and raison d'etre - yeah, they were pretty much just Space Zombies.

Overall the Queen was a terrible idea, even though it worked well enough in First Contact, the best of the TNG movies despite some annoyances like that and Picard's newly-found psychic connection to the Borg.
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Old March 3 2013, 12:45 AM   #37
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

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Overall the Queen was a terrible idea...
I actually think ti worked quite well, and that the Queen is a logical extension of the Borg.

After all, if the Borg Collective functions as a single mind, why wouldn't that mind have a single consciousness? It's quite plausible that this consciousness would occasionally control a single body, like a puppeteer with a marionette.
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Old March 3 2013, 01:08 AM   #38
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

It seemed to me to be the antithesis of the Borg as originally conceived. I mean, yes, the Borg are indeed a single consciousness, but the way I see it, it's that very fact that makes it meaningless to speak of them (it?) occasionally controlling a single body - it controls billions of single bodies, all the time. On that account, no one body being more or less important than any other one body is pretty much the whole bit, isn't it?

I'm prepared to forgive First Contact as an individual piece for having it, because it's very, very tough to make a watchable action flick without an individual villain. But for me it marked the point where the Borg just weren't to be taken seriously anymore.
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Old March 3 2013, 01:37 AM   #39
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Were you also turned off by the idea of there being aliens who could fight the Borg, like the 8472? Or was that believable?
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Old March 3 2013, 02:02 AM   #40
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

I tuned out of Voyager before that. I've heard of 8472 but never seen any eps featuring them.

ETA in principle I've no issue with species who are a match for the Borg (the Q, or whatsisface from The Survivors, if nothing else). I'm making my way through the middle seasons of DS9 for the first time and it seems to me the Dominion would at least hold their own.
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Old March 3 2013, 02:03 AM   #41
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

While the Borg are certainly a bigger threat, I'd say the Dominion are a more interesting, layered and well developed enemy. Gimme Weyoun over the Borg Queen any day.
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Old March 3 2013, 02:26 AM   #42
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

It's occured to me over the course of the first third or so of Season 3 that the Dominion seem in some ways to be a compromise between the Borg and some more ordinary race than the Founders. The Founders are individuals, but they are also part of this 'great link' business, which seems hive-mindy in practice, though not to the exclusion of individuality. And there's something a little Borgesque about the concept of the Dominion - the conquered cultures, so to speak, adapt to service the Founders, no? Food for thought. Still plenty to go and I may be the victim of some season-length red herring or something, in which case, please excuse me.
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Old March 3 2013, 11:40 PM   #43
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

sonak wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post

It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.
I agree, defeating the Borg was never effortless.


maybe not, but Trek went from one Borg Cube nearly conquering the Federation to one SHUTTLECRAFT penetrating a Borg base and defeating them. How the mighty had fallen.
Um yeah, but not a frontal attack with guns blazing..it was not conventional, just like Geordi and Data's plan in I, Borg was not convential. There WAS NO conventional way to defeat them.
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Old March 3 2013, 11:42 PM   #44
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
While the Borg are certainly a bigger threat, I'd say the Dominion are a more interesting, layered and well developed enemy. Gimme Weyoun over the Borg Queen any day.

I generally agree with this, but for limited use you can't beat the Borg. On the other hand I'd rather listen to the Borg Queen over Weyoun any day myself...what a blabbermouth.

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Old March 7 2013, 01:53 AM   #45
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

For political intrigue, I prefer the Dominion. I think they are the perfect enemy for Deep Space Nine. You start out talking about how a society recovers from oppression and then put the Federation in that situation--see how Earth and the Feds deal with this crisis and if their rhetoric at the beginning of the show matches the actions in that same moral dilemna. Having an enemy that is essentially a dark Bajor--oppressed people want to control as much of the galaxy as possible because "what you can control, can't hurt you" is just the beginning of the onion. They have no respect for humanoid life, mono-forms or solids, and to show that, they create solids to be soldiers and politicians to do their bidding while they are recluses.

But the Borg represent our society as well. It represents our technology and globalization run amok. How long is it before we have interfaces in our brains, carry our computers everywhere we go? Isn't that the next step after the Google glasses? So it could be on the horizon. I see the internet in it as well. We don't group-think or move it with our minds, but we do a lot of research and communication online. I'm doing one right now. And how easy would it be to cause a disruption to that network the way they did in BOBW? How much would we lose in our society where everything is paperless?

The Borg cannot be reasoned with--they are direct and to the point. You will do this or you will die. We are stronger than you. And individualism means nothing. There is no representative to sit down with and negotiate a peace. That is the reason that they are so dangerous--powerful and the collective mind cannot make a decision to respect your border. They are improving the galaxy. If some of this sounds like the rest of the world looking at American intervention, it should. I think it looks at the downside of trying to liberate people to capitalism and technology, especially with the barrel of a gun. It's at least a possible interpretation, not necessarily dead-on.

I think they are overused in Trek, and because of that, it's harder to see them as a menace, especially when we can now talk to the Borg Queen. So a little of the danger is missing now. They can enter into deals with the Federation (or at least Voyager). I think they are the perfect enemy, but that is what makes it difficult to keep them around and not ruin the Star Trek universe (or the Borg) by using them too much.
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