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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 28 2013, 09:09 PM   #46
Dream
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

gottacook wrote: View Post
Yes, but if TVH hadn't been (in the words of Shatner on Saturday Night Live at the time) "a huge hit," people wouldn't have been interested enough in TFF to make it number 1 for a week.
Also since TVH was a huge hit, Paramount decided to go ahead on making TNG on tv.
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Old March 1 2013, 12:00 PM   #47
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Sigokat wrote: View Post
What I never understood about Nemesis was why, when B4 was discovered, they all acted so surprised that there was another android like Data. Did they all just have their memories wiped in regards to Lore?

Perhaps it was explained somewhere other than the movie, but I just never understood that, strictly in the sense of the movie itself.

Anyone know anything about this?
There was a line about Lore, but it was cut. Presumably not to confuse those who hadn't seen those episodes of the TV show (like the director.)
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Old March 1 2013, 03:37 PM   #48
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

I personally don't have any huge issues with INS (though I could have done with less of the cutsie Data-Artem stuff) it's no TFF!

NEM was just bad. Gaping plot holes and story elements that made little sense (Worf and Wesley back in uniforms, Shinzon's hatred of a planet he's never set foot on, pointless nature-vs-nurture debates between Picard and Shinzon, the fact that there are uncharted planets along the Neutral Zone [probably the best patrolled region of space there is], Troi seemingly unable to press buttons by herself), needless buggy ride on an world where aliens are hostile for no reason, the E-E growing multiple decks with a massive chasm that goes nowhere and does nothing.

But the biggest thing that ticks me off about that film is B-4 and the fact that Data's death is cheapened by having him there as a back-up at the end of the film. If they are going to kill off Data, then do it and do it right (don't do a Spock and leave a loophole in there in case more films get made).
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Old March 1 2013, 04:31 PM   #49
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

I agree with you, and again Data unfortunately without a emotion chip
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Old March 1 2013, 04:57 PM   #50
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Sigokat wrote: View Post
What I never understood about Nemesis was why, when B4 was discovered, they all acted so surprised that there was another android like Data. Did they all just have their memories wiped in regards to Lore?
I've never understood this complaint about B4. Lore is not an option, his remains are a known quantity. The crew know that there were more than just Data and Lore created, have discovered "unknown" Soong-type androids in the past...so their reaction seems pretty legit to me. Mild curiosity over having found another one, and Picard makes the comment about Soong having a penchant for whimsical names. What exactly is the problem?
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Old March 1 2013, 05:47 PM   #51
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
I agree with you, and again Data unfortunately without a emotion chip
I'd forgotten about that.
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Old March 1 2013, 08:43 PM   #52
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?
Trek 2009 sunk it.
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Old March 1 2013, 08:53 PM   #53
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

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Old March 1 2013, 09:16 PM   #54
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?
Trek 2009 sunk it.
Nah, TNG movies had been long laid to rest before ST2009 came along. ST2009 killed Star Trek: The Beginning, the Romulan war movie that was greenlit and written, then dropped when the reigns of Trek were handed to JJ Abrams.
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Old March 1 2013, 10:02 PM   #55
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Tosk wrote: View Post
Sigokat wrote: View Post
What I never understood about Nemesis was why, when B4 was discovered, they all acted so surprised that there was another android like Data. Did they all just have their memories wiped in regards to Lore?
I've never understood this complaint about B4. Lore is not an option, his remains are a known quantity. The crew know that there were more than just Data and Lore created, have discovered "unknown" Soong-type androids in the past...so their reaction seems pretty legit to me. Mild curiosity over having found another one, and Picard makes the comment about Soong having a penchant for whimsical names. What exactly is the problem?
Agreed, I've never understood this criticism either. "The crew act like they've never seen another Soong android before" is a commonly heard nitpick of Nemesis, but it just ain't true. Oh sure, they don't mention Lore by name... but as you correctly say, they do acknowledge the reality of there being other Soong androids, and they've got no reason to assume its Lore because, again like you say, they've probably got what's left of him safely locked up in a Starfleet facility. And they've got no real reason to distrust another Soong android just because Lore went a bit wrong...

In fact, the movie does have a tacit acknowledgement of Lore, without actually mentioning him by name. When B4 is shown to have betrayed the Enterprise crew (albeit unknowingly, as a pawn of Shinzon), Data's reaction is almost one of anger, as he declares "You are dangerous!" and shuts B4 down. His reaction makes perfect sense because he's disappointed in himself for taking B4 on trust and for putting the lives of his friends in danger, the unspoken line being that he's thinking he should have been more wary of B4 after all that business with Lore.
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Old March 1 2013, 10:06 PM   #56
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

That movie wasn't green-lit; it was just in development for as long as it took Berman's contract to run out. Not all that dissimilar to what happened to Harve Bennett after the fifth feature film.

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Old March 2 2013, 12:30 AM   #57
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Lance wrote;
His reaction makes perfect sense because he's disappointed in himself for taking B4 on trust and for putting the lives of his friends in danger
No it doesn't because he shouldn't have showed any emotion because he doesn't have the emotion chip activated.
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Old March 2 2013, 12:36 AM   #58
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
No it doesn't because he shouldn't have showed any emotion because he doesn't have the emotion chip activated.
The emotion chip was never mentioned even once in the Nemesis movie. It made all the scenes with emotional Data in Generations even more pointless since we know it will make no lasting impact.
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Old March 2 2013, 04:15 AM   #59
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
Lance wrote;
His reaction makes perfect sense because he's disappointed in himself for taking B4 on trust and for putting the lives of his friends in danger
No it doesn't because he shouldn't have showed any emotion because he doesn't have the emotion chip activated.
An entire subplot with Data trying to help B4 develop was filmed but mostly dropped from the movie. Data's storyline in Nemesis was that he had a new brother who he wanted to help along, and (at least the one deleted scene related to the subplot we do get to see) shows Data somewhat disappointed in B4's lack of progress in even the simplest of tasks. These deleted scenes show why he jacks himself into B4's neural net and tries to give his little brother a helping hand in the development department. He's therefore incredibly disappointed that he allowed himself to be taken in by the B4 sceme, and (like it or not) Spiner does seem to imply in his "because you are dangerous" speech while deactivating B4 that it's Data's decision to shut-down B4, because he's made the same mistake he made with Lore: too much trust. He blames himself for making the same mistake twice, and is determined that he won't let B4 cloud his judgement like he did Lore.

See, THIS is the true reason why Nemesis is made of fail. Even Brent Spiner's story line got screwed over by the director this time around.

(For what it's worth, I prefer to take the final scene as being an indication that B4 is finally beginning to develop, and that a subsequent movie could have had Spiner as B4. The route the novels took of having Data "take over" his brother seemed a little heartless IMHO.)

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USS Firefly wrote: View Post
No it doesn't because he shouldn't have showed any emotion because he doesn't have the emotion chip activated.
The emotion chip was never mentioned even once in the Nemesis movie. It made all the scenes with emotional Data in Generations even more pointless since we know it will make no lasting impact.
Again, the emotion chip is in a deleted scene. Its omission from the plot was down to the director getting a bit too scissor-happy in the editing room.
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Old March 2 2013, 04:22 AM   #60
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Lance wrote: View Post
The route the novels took of having Data "take over" his brother seemed a little heartless IMHO.)
Not in the good novels though.
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