RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,558
Posts: 5,401,965
Members: 24,862
Currently online: 680
Newest member: igotbit

TrekToday headlines

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Abrams To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Sep 24

Trek 3 Casting Rumor Reactions
By: T'Bonz on Sep 24

Trek Comics Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 24 2013, 07:19 PM   #1891
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
Progress and Battle Lines are pretty good, and definitely shouldn't be skipped. Past Prologue introduces us to mr. Garak, enough said.
Past Prologue is a good episode overall. In some ways, it's a better pilot than the pilot, or better than the second half of Emissary.

Of course the writers weren't thinking in these terms back then, but in retrospect it probably would have been better to introduce the Prophets later.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24 2013, 09:52 PM   #1892
heavy lids
Lieutenant Commander
 
heavy lids's Avatar
 
Location: Denver
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

flemm wrote: View Post
apenpaap wrote: View Post
Progress and Battle Lines are pretty good, and definitely shouldn't be skipped. Past Prologue introduces us to mr. Garak, enough said.


Of course the writers weren't thinking in these terms back then, but in retrospect it probably would have been better to introduce the Prophets later.
I agree. And considering the importance of the prophets and their relationship with Sisko, they really didn't focus on it very much early on in DS9 which seems strange since it was a major part of the pilot.
__________________
"Divine intervention is...unlikely" - The Doctor
heavy lids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 07:58 AM   #1893
Ketrick
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Maryland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I recently rewatched the fourth season episode "To The Death" and I noticed a parallel between Sisko and Dukat that helps build up to the whole Emissary/Anti-Emissary confrontation in the final episode that I hadn't noticed before. In "To The Death", Weyoun 4 offers to make Captain Sisko absolute dictator of the Federation which he refused. Later on while negotiating with the Dominion, Dukat apparently is given the offer of becoming absolute dictator of the Cardassian Union which he accepts. Such little plot threads being picked up and built on later in the series is something that makes DS9 great.
Ketrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 08:39 AM   #1894
HaventGotALife
Fleet Captain
 
HaventGotALife's Avatar
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ketrick wrote: View Post
I recently rewatched the fourth season episode "To The Death" and I noticed a parallel between Sisko and Dukat that helps build up to the whole Emissary/Anti-Emissary confrontation in the final episode that I hadn't noticed before. In "To The Death", Weyoun 4 offers to make Captain Sisko absolute dictator of the Federation which he refused. Later on while negotiating with the Dominion, Dukat apparently is given the offer of becoming absolute dictator of the Cardassian Union which he accepts. Such little plot threads being picked up and built on later in the series is something that makes DS9 great.
It also shows what kind of organization the Dominion is and what type of "bargaining" they do. It says as much about them for making the offer than it does for the two men and them having different reactions to that.
__________________
"Cogley was old-fashioned, preferring paper books to computers. He had an extensive collection of books, he claimed never to use the computer in his office."
HaventGotALife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 03:27 PM   #1895
Ketrick
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Maryland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^You make a very good point. I wish I had thought to have made it. I would add to your point that the whole offering to make someone absolute dictator adds to the Dominion basically being an evil "Federation".
Ketrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 04:20 PM   #1896
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

What You Leave Behind (****)

I have a bit of a tradition with these review threads where I single out my problems with the series finales and go all nitpicky on them. That made sense for both Endgame and TATV, but not so much for Sleeping in Light. It makes a little more sense for What You Leave Behind, but even though the episode has its share of problems, it's still a mostly satisfying conclusion to the DS9 saga. So I'm going to start by listing most of the episode's faults, then I'll move on to the good stuff.

Issue number 1: The story is rushed

The Dominion War, an intractable conflict that has been going on for two years, ends in the space of an hour. The Federation invasion, the Cardassian revolt, the Dominion's surrender, and other elements of the plot are all contained within relatively little screentime. Almost everything that happens makes sense, but it all happens so quickly that you don't have time to question what just happened before some other important thing happens. I can't help but feel that the writers left too much material for the finale, and that makes me more resentful of the mid-season fluff and the slow start to this final chapter arc.

Adding to this feeling that the story is rushed, the Dominion War storylines are concurrent with the story of Winn and Dukat in the Fire Caves. This just doesn't work, the Dominion War story appears to play out over several weeks, while the Winn/Dukat story takes up only a couple of days at most. The only way I can think to explain this is by theorising that the Bajoran system is in a really deep gravity-well and time moves more slowly there than out in the rest of the universe. But I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Overall, I'm left with the impression that the Dominion War could have been ended a year ago if the DS9 crew had really put their backs into it and hadn't spent so much time playing in the holosuite.

Issue number 2: Dead Fish's change of heart

This is actually a consequence of issue 1, but I feel it should be addressed on its own. Within about 5 seconds, Dead Fish goes from wanting to kill as many Federation soldiers as she can to being willing to surrender. When analysed, it makes sense that she would be willing to stand down to save her race and to ensure that Odo joins the Great Link, but it happens so rapidly that it gives me mental whiplash. Linking is a powerful connection, but it would have been more palatable for us monoforms viewing the show if the link with Odo had taken several minutes. The entire episode was so rushed that they probably couldn't allow time for that, but it's disappointing that DS9's primary story arc is concluded so swiftly.

Issue number 3: Stock footage

This is a minor complaint, but I can't nitpick the finale and not address it. This is the final epic battle of the Dominion War, the greatest conflict in the Alpha Quadrant's history. I know the reason why they were forced into using stock footage, and at least they put most of it together in a single minute-long clump, but it does cheapen the experience a little.

Issue number 4: Where's Jadzia?

Once again, I know the behind the scenes reason why Jadzia wasn't included in the montage, but her absence is noticeable. She was a main character in the show for 6 years, she was Sisko's best friend and Worf's wife, so it would have been nice if somebody had remembered her.

Issue number 5: "An entire universe set in flames"

I know that some men just wanting to watch the world burn is a common trope in genre storytelling, but did the resolution to the Pah-wraith arc really have to be so cheesy? The Pah-wraiths don't seem to have a purpose other than to be evil and want to kill everyone, and their conflict with the Prophets has no depth to it. It's a black and white tale of a race of evil supernatural beings that hate everything, and a race of friendly supernatural beings that want to stop them. When the Prophets were introduced, they were presented as a truly alien race that allowed Star Trek to explore some harder sci-fi material than normal, as well as the human ability to dwell on past suffering. It wasn't high art, but it was trying to do something more than your standard space opera. It's a pity it all descended into this madness.

Adding insult to injury, the final confrontation between Sisko and Dukat is just lame. Firstly, Sisko's reason for going to the Fire Caves is because his spidey-sense tingled. When he gets there, Dukat magics him up a little while gloating, then they both fall into a fiery cavern. So Sisko's great trial was to lunge at a guy? Couldn't the Prophets have just sent Sisko the message to burn that book 4 years ago? This is an anticlimactic, nonsensical end to a story that had a lot of potential, but which didn't develop properly.

At least they didn't use stock footage, I suppose.


So, with all that crap in the episode, why give it four stars? Because of this stuff...

Plaudit number 1: An entire Cardassia set in flames

I love the entire Cardassian revolution arc, and while this episode may have been rushed, it hit pretty much all the right notes on that front. The conflict between the Dominion and the Cardassians in this final arc was really well executed, culminating here. The Dominion neglected their Cardassian subjects, so Damar rebelled. The Dominion used force to crush the rebellion, so Damar organised a popular revolt. The outraged Dominion attempt to impose order through a show of strength, so they destroy an entire city. In response, the Cardassian revolt grows and their military switches sides and joins the Federation alliance. Knowing defeat is inevitable, the Dominion resorts to exterminating as many Cardassians as they can in a petty act of vengeance.

In the end, Cardassia is in ruins, and we can't help but sympathise for the species that has been a thorn in the Federation's side since the beginning of the show. It also brings the show full-circle by bringing Cardassia to ruins in the same way Bajor was in Emissary. DS9 may have lost sight of some elements from the first season, such as Bajor joining the Federation, but the sight of Cardassia in ruins shows that DS9 didn't completely lose track of its roots.

I even kinda like the controversial decision to kill Damar because it elevates him to the status of a mythic figure. Revolutionaries that go on to govern their countries after the the fighting is over often lose their lustre in the eyes of the people. Damar will go down in history as the legend that freed Cardassia, a symbol of Cardassian independence more than a person in his own right. Maybe he doesn't deserve that fate, but the same can be said of many revered national heroes. Damar has become the Cardassian Li Nalas.

Plaudit number 2: Garak finally meets Weyoun

And kills him. They're DS9's two most colourful characters, the two finally meeting is something fans wanted for a long time. Their only scene together may have been brief, but the hatred visible in Garak's eyes as he pulls the trigger is worth a thousands words. Also worthy of note is Garak's final scene where he gets in the last word on the Cardassian people and condemns their arrogance and opportunism. That character has gone on an interesting journey, and ending his exile on a ruined Cardassia is a fitting, bittersweet ending to his character arc.

Plaudit number 3: Odo joins the Link

Odo's decision to join the Great Link was the right way for him to go. Odo is DS9's outsider character, following in the footsteps of Spock and Data. But he is more than that; he is also our judge. He was sent out by the Founders to learn about other races and provide them with new perspectives, and to complete that role he must join the Link and share his experiences. Over the course of the show, Odo has become acquainted with our virtues and our failings, and now it's time for him to return home and see to it that we get a fair hearing.

This leads to some great scenes, particularly Odo and Quark's final confrontation. I think that was a perfect way to end their rivalry; not actually ending it. As much fun as it is to watch characters and relationships change (O'Brien and Bashir come to mind), it's also fun to know that some relationships will never change, at least not on the surface. Odo's final scene is also a good one, I particularly liked the moment when he asked Kira to tell everyone that he'll miss them (including Quark) because he was too reserved to say so to their faces. Then he walks off in a tuxedo and saves his species.

Plaudit number 4: Sisko joins the Prophets

I don't like the way it actually happened, but I do like the idea of Sisko joining the Prophets, it just feels right somehow. His faith in the Prophets has been slowly growing throughout the series to the point where he is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. Personally, I prefer to think that Sisko is trapped in the Celestial Temple for eternity and that is the penance and great sorrow he was warned about, but the ending is open enough for fans to also imagine that he will return one day should they wish to do so. (Yes, I know he returns in the novels, but I don't read those.)

Plaudit number 5: The Minstrel Boy

It's a small thing, but the fact that O'Brien's montage is to the tune of The Minstrel Boy is a nice nod back The Wounded, which was the first proper O'Brien episode. And while the montage sequence itself is kinda cheesy, if any Star Trek show earned the right to have such a sequence, it's DS9.

Plaudit number 6: Nog gets promoted

Another small moment, but it was a nice way to cap off Nog's journey. He started out as a petty thief and ended up as a lieutenant and war veteran. It's also a nice nod to the impact that Sisko had on all these people's lives, because Nog wouldn't be where he is today without Sisko's faith in him.

Plaudit number 7: The final five minutes

The final five minutes are just about perfect. It starts with Nog's promotion, which then moves on to Kira handling Sisko's baseball as she takes command of the space station. Bashir and Ezri plan to continue the traditions of Bashir and O'Brien, but it also signals a new era for those remaining on DS9. Then Kira chews out Quark for a bit, just like she did at the end of Emissary. Quark gets the final line of the series, which just works somehow. Then there's the final shot of the young man staring out a window, waiting for his father to return home. As the lone horn plays, we're forcibly dragged away from the station we have come to love, until it is but a dot in the starlight.

Plaudit number 8: It's an ending

All Good Things is a great finale for TNG, and it works well for the type of show TNG was, but there's nothing really final about it. DS9 is a semi-serialised show with a large cast of recurring characters, and it needed a definitive ending, which is what What You Leave Behind delivered. This is a concrete final adventure for this crew. The war is over, many of the characters are dead, and many more have moved on to new things. Life will go on on DS9, but it wont be the same as it was before.

It's also the reason why WYLB is such a difficult episode to watch for a Niner like me. DS9 wasn't just a place, it was a time, and this episode reminds me that that time is over. We can rewatch it and enjoy the journey all over again, but there will never be more. I'm glad that DS9 ended on its own terms and that didn't it attempt to continue ad infinitum. But I'm also sad that it's over, and that bittersweet sentiment is something that What You Leave Behind captures very well. For all its problems, the episode hits the right emotional notes when it needs to, and it serves as a worthy finale to a brilliant yet flawed series.

Wormhole in Peril: 10
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 04:45 PM   #1897
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Excellent summary/analysis TheGodBen.

Thanks for doing this thread

So, what's on deck next?
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 07:45 PM   #1898
Seven of Five
Commodore
 
Seven of Five's Avatar
 
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Bah, the back button just ate my post.

That's a very fair and astute review you've written there TheGodBen, so kudos on that.

The finale is by no means perfect, but it hits so many good notes that you're left emotionally fulfilled, which is important if you're going to forgive for the ideas that weren't developed, or that were completely forgotten.
__________________
Other prisons do Shakespeare and shit. I want to play a role, like Desdemona or Ophelia or Clair Huxtable.
Seven of Five is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 09:33 PM   #1899
Worf'sParmach
Commander
 
Worf'sParmach's Avatar
 
Location: Plano, TX
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You nailed it (as usual). I have such a love/hate relationship with the finale.

I will say that I never noticed the stock footage, I only know it was used because of places like this. Maybe it's because I watched it first run, so there was a long time between seeing Sacrifice of Angels (which is where I think the footage is from?) and What You Leave Behind.

I think the absence of Jadzia was glaring. Ok, so they couldn't come to an agreement about using her image and voice, but not even a mention of her name? They could have at least shown Worf in his wedding attire during his montage. We're supposed to believe that Ezri is the thing from DS9 that had the biggest impact on his life there?

I remember way back when the Internet was new and we were waiting for the finale to air, there was lots of debate about who would get to kill Dukat in the end. Many people (myself included) thought it should be Kira. So I remember being disappointed in how it happened for that reason.

Love that Odo returns home. Very poetic.

I also liked that Worf got to go "home" and was disappointed in the post-Nemesis books that had him return to the Enterprise to be Picard's first officer. That seems like a big step down from Ambassador, which is a role that's perfect for Worf (and quite frankly ironic seeing that both K'Ehleyr and Dax held it before him)

The whole Emissary thing was probably my least favorite arc of DS9, which is probably why I didn't get into the show at the beginning. I thought the Sarah Sisko Prophet thing was extra stupid, and I definitely did not like Ben becoming a Prophet and leaving his pregnant wife behind. I would have liked it better if he'd just decided to go move to his house and Bajor and leave Starfleet life behind them to have him disappear into the sky like Jesus. In my mind I pretend that's what nappened, LOL.
__________________
Obsessing over every detail in the Star Trek Universe since the 1990s
Check out my fanfic (pretty please ): http://www.fanfiction.net/~ginomo
Worf'sParmach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 10:03 PM   #1900
Worf'sParmach
Commander
 
Worf'sParmach's Avatar
 
Location: Plano, TX
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I never realized that Garak and Weyoun never met! I wonder if that was on purpose.
__________________
Obsessing over every detail in the Star Trek Universe since the 1990s
Check out my fanfic (pretty please ): http://www.fanfiction.net/~ginomo
Worf'sParmach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1 2013, 03:28 AM   #1901
Dover
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
I remember way back when the Internet was new and we were waiting for the finale to air, there was lots of debate about who would get to kill Dukat in the end. Many people (myself included) thought it should be Kira. So I remember being disappointed in how it happened for that reason.
That bothers me, too. I felt like Dukat and Winn clearly have to die, and Sisko and Kira have pretty much equally been adversaries to both of them, so Sisko should kill one, and Kira the other.

Since the end of the series is so focused on the prophets, I would have gone with Sisko and Winn as Emissary vs. anti-Emissary, and Kira and Dukat representing the military conflict that defined the series. It also would be a nice final closure for Bajor, to have Kira be the one to bring Dukat to justice.
Dover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1 2013, 03:39 AM   #1902
Dover
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Then he walks off in a tuxedo and saves his species.
This part kills me. It's a nice little detail that brings Odo full-circle. He spent his whole life frustrated at having to take a certain shape just to please other people. Then he finally accepts himself and starts to explore who he really is and all the things he can be, and finds someone who loves him in his natural form. And the last thing he does before he leaves is to go out of his way to take the form he thinks she would like best. Gets me every time.
Dover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1 2013, 05:06 AM   #1903
heavy lids
Lieutenant Commander
 
heavy lids's Avatar
 
Location: Denver
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

"What You Leave Behind" is almost a perfect ending to a series. I always get somewhat depressed when I finish DS9.
__________________
"Divine intervention is...unlikely" - The Doctor
heavy lids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1 2013, 05:30 AM   #1904
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
It's also the reason why WYLB is such a difficult episode to watch for a Niner like me. DS9 wasn't just a place, it was a time, and this episode reminds me that that time is over. We can rewatch it and enjoy the journey all over again, but there will never be more. I'm glad that DS9 ended on its own terms and that didn't it attempt to continue ad infinitum. But I'm also sad that it's over, and that bittersweet sentiment is something that What You Leave Behind captures very well. For all its problems, the episode hits the right emotional notes when it needs to, and it serves as a worthy finale to a brilliant yet flawed series.
I agree with this part especially. While the finale has some obvious flaws, I still find it extremely satisfying on an emotional level, and that is more important. It also brings everything to a close very nicely. There is a sense, obviously, that life will go on for these characters, but the saga has reached its end.

"Bittersweet" certainly describes the feeling. Odo returning to the link is perhaps the best single moment of this kind. But there are many good ones.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1 2013, 01:14 PM   #1905
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, what's on deck next?
Next up is the season 7 review, with graphs. Then a proper series review, with bigger graphs. Then I start my long-awaited Golden Girls review thread.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
deep space nine, ds9, episode discussion, review

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:26 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.