Why Khan?

[Sindatur]

WarpFactorZ wrote:

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In principle I agree, but this isn't quite a comparable situation. There is no continuity aspect between the different shows you cite. Here, it's been made very clear that prior to 2233, the universe was the "prime" (TOS) one. Sure, the look of ships and technology change to suit budgets, but the people shouldn't. No one is going to switch genders. If Khan appears in this movie, he should be basically the guy we saw in Space Seed: a former middle eastern dictator who was ousted and exiled. He can't suddenly become a white British chap with an attitude to match his voice.

Except he wasn't a Middle Eastern Guy playing the part, he was a Mexican Guy playing the part. you're much more liely to find a British Guy in India/The Middle East, then you are a Mexican Guy.

[Greg Cox]

As I've written before, I'm old enough to have lived through at least six different live-action versions of Superman. A new take on Khan doesn't faze me . . . .

If indeed Cumberbatch is playing Khan, which is still just a popular theory at this point. We shouldn't treat it as an article of faith.

[CorporalClegg]

Greg Cox wrote:

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If indeed Cumberbatch is playing Khan, which is still just a popular theory at this point. We shouldn't treat it as an article of faith.

Yes. And I still don't think he is Khan. From a story escalation stand point, it makes the most sense to wait for film three.

It just annoys me to no end that people have to get all nuts over a few cosmetic changes that are ultimately meaningless. But as I've pointed out before, you're one of a handful of people who are actually creatively (and financially!) invested in Khan, and you don't care what Paramount does. Others should take that to heart.

[The Wormhole]

Franklin wrote:

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There were some good Klingon characters in TNG and DS9. I wish at least one character that strong had been estabilshed in TOS. I guess part of the problem was the series didn't run long enough for that to happen.

I quite like Kor, Koloth, and Kang, even just based on their appearances in TOS. Granted it may have been better if they had just gone with one Klingon commander who showed up a few times to be Kirk's foil. In fact, wasn't Koloth originally intended to be a recurring character although that never went through? Still, those three characters were great in the one episode they each had.

-- In TMP, they didn't even have names and are out in the first five minutes. Left one wondering, "why even use them?"

Well, Klingons served the story as a means of showing how threatening V'Ger is. Three Klingon ships are no match for this funky cloud, how can the Enterprise possibly fare?

-- TSFS, vile villains, nothing deeper than that.

In all honesty, Kruge certainly isn't my favourite Trek villain, although Christopher Lloyd certainly does an excellent job portraying the character.

-- TFF, it didn't. The thought was dropped, and instead, we get some Klingon goofball in the story.

Yes, the Klingons in that movie are really cheesy, though that is also part of their charm.

-- TUC, a better and more nuanced job using them, but it was the last go-round, too. Too little, too late. And, imagine if it had been Kor meeting up with Kirk on last time, instead of Chang, especially if Kor and Kirk had had more of a history in TOS.

Chang really is a great character, though I see your point, if say Kor had been used three times in TOS instead of two other commanders being created and him and Kirk had one last fight here it could have been quite a profound way to end TOS. Though at the same time, I really can't see Kor, or Koloth or Kang involved in a conspiracy to sabotage peace by framing Kirk and assassinating the Chancellor. Forgive me for trotting this overused term, but they strike me as being more honourable than that.

[Therin of Andor]

The Wormhole wrote:

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In fact, wasn't Koloth originally intended to be a recurring character although that never went through?

John Colicos as Kor was slated to be the recurring Klingon adversary for Kirk, but he notified that he was unavailable for "The Trouble With Tribbles". Then, he was supposed to play Kor in "Day of the Dove", but was again unavailable.

[WarpFactorZ]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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John Colicos as Kor was slated to be the recurring Klingon adversary for Kirk, but he notified that he was unavailable for "The Trouble With Tribbles". Then, he was supposed to play Kor in "Day of the Dove", but was again unavailable.

STVI was meant to be a nostalgia-filled end to TOS. It had all the classic plot devices: Kirk vs Klingons, Kirk fighting his "evil twin," McCoy doing the doctor thing on an alien, unmasking the assassin to see "who this really is!" (OK, that was Scooby Doo), etc... In terms of Chang, I felt he was a generalize homage to TOS Klingons: none of this "honor" garbage, just a conniving, cold villain. To top it off, he had the fu manchu mustache and a "smooth" forehead (at least as far as bumpy foreheads go).

I agree, however, that it would have been nice to pit Kirk against a single recurring character one last time. But if there had been such a person, they probably would have appeared in the films long before TUC.

[WarpFactorZ]

My Name Is Legion wrote:

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The "alternate/Prime universe" stuff is a fig leaf - they weren't really faithful to it in the first movie, and you can be sure that more and more will diverge with each successive movie.

It's just a reboot, folks.

It's a post-2233 reboot. If it was a clean reboot, there was no need or purpose to include Leonard Nimoy, or the entire time-travel aspect. It wasn't simply a nostalgia bone thrown out to the die hard fans -- there were enough of those peppering the film.

I think the writers are big enough Trek fans to respect the basic premise of canon and continuity. Sure, there will inevitably be errors or ret-cons. But I would be surprised if they went out of their way to radically change what's been established. Unlike Batman, Superman, or Bond films, that's been the established principle of the Star Trek universe for almost 50 years. How would fans react to a Star Wars Ep VII that retroactively makes Darth Vader a woman, or ignores all events from Empire Strikes Back?

[gastrof]

Was it or was it not an official announcement that the villain was one known in the previous timeline?

If it was official, then he's GOT to be someone we already know...

Right?

[CorporalCaptain]

WarpFactorZ wrote:

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But I would be surprised if they went out of their way to radically change what's been established.

Well, they're not going "out of their way" to do anything. Looking at it another way, whatever they do, that's the way they're going. It's tautological like that.

[Sindatur]

gastrof wrote:

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Was it or was it not an official announcement that the villain was one known in the previous timeline?

If it was official, then he's GOT to be someone we already know...

Right?

1. Alice Eve's and Benedict Cumberbatch' characters are Canon
2. Alice Eve is Officially revealed as Carol Marcus (A Canon Character)
3. Orci in Interview (Or was it someone else): I may have lied about one of them

So, yea, maybe, or maybe not

[CommanderRaytas]

Lance wrote:

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I don't think it will be Khan. But this...

... is something I really like the sound of. The implication of lots of missions between ST09 and this, possibly even getting to see some of those missions, and the culmination of that building to John Harrison, the villain, taking on the Federation.

And it's Benedict Cumberbatch! He rules! And he IS NOT KHAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!

Thank you, God. I really appreciate it. I do. You did me a real solid, there.

....unless he is Khan. In which case you have to prepare yourselves for some serious ranting, dear readers.

[thumbtack]

Just repost your rants from last year's thread.

[M'Sharak]

^ Wait, wait - if Raytas is going to fire up the rant engine, then I want an all-new, all-original rant - not just a reprint.

gastrof wrote:

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Was it or was it not an official announcement that the villain was one known in the previous timeline?

If it was official, then he's GOT to be someone we already know...

Right?

Click.

[CommanderRaytas]

Thank you, M. I want to be free to rant anew! Accept no reprints!

It's a win-win for me, you see: if it's not Khan, I'm happy. If it is Khan, I can rant to my heart's delight! In the words of the fantabulous Oberst Landa:

Oooh, THAT'S A BINGO!

[DalekJim]

HaventGotALife wrote:

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The casual fan knows the Vulcan hand thing, Captain Kirk and Mr. (or Dr.) Spock, and the Klingons. That's it. The casual fan wants a popcorn flick. I would like to see Star Trek do something unique, to try something that isn't so safe. And doing a movie where a Khan-like villain threatens the universe, the Federation, Earth, or the Starship Enterprise, is boring. I don't want another villain with Khan's screen time. I want something fresh, but whenever the deviate from that, it's killed by this generation of fans. See the thread about Insurrection being "small potatoes, the stakes weren't high enough" in the other forum.

Agreed.

Seriously, him being Khan or not makes no difference to me. Either way he'll be a vengeance-filled villain with a doomsday weapon like in the last 2 movies. I'd like something different.