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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 27 2013, 06:29 AM   #31
HaventGotALife
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Harvey wrote: View Post
Insurrection obviously hurt the movie series. It followed the previous film, a hit, by increasing the budget and decreasing the box office. This led Paramount to budget Nemesis at ten million less than Insurrection (the first time since The Wrath of Khan that an installment in the franchise cost less than its predecessor).

Still, Nemesis was made, so Insurrection obviously didn't kill the TNG movie series. Nemesis did that. Clearly, they wanted to make another movie -- the tagline, after all, was "A Generation's Final Journey Begins" -- but neither the box office nor the reviews warranted another movie. And that was that.
Why are we so concerned about "killing the franchise?" When did we become studio executives and bean counters?

Watch the movies. Which one was more entertaining and why?

My money is on Insurrection. "Radiations to help billions" like heating homes and driving cars in today's world. "On earth, petroleum turned petty thugs into world leaders." Our relationship with the Middle East as the United States. We are the bad guys because, in the real world, we wouldn't blink at giving smallpox to the Indians in order to build a railroad.

Geordi has eyes, for cry out loud. Disease--pick one--is all gone. It's not just a fountain-of-youth. We'll have our lifespans doubled. And all we have to do is kill, or move, these 600 people. And Picard continues to hold the Federation ideals. I don't care where it falls in the universe or the nitpickers of continuity. It is a good story.

The only thing I don't like is how happy the movie is, how cheesy. And I have yet to mention how much money it made or the demo that it hit.

The older I get, the better the movie is. Our job is to be entertained, not keep the franchise alive. Enjoy each movie or series like it's the last one they will do. And be brutal about what they do right and what they do wrong.
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Old February 27 2013, 06:35 AM   #32
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

I don't understand why Paramount thought the stupid humor in Insurrection was a good idea after TFF. It was like they wanted it to fail.
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Old February 27 2013, 06:40 AM   #33
HaventGotALife
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Dream wrote: View Post
I don't understand why Paramount thought the stupid humor in Insurrection was a good idea after TFF. It was like they wanted it to fail.
What stupid humor? Could you give examples? I think it's Frakes direction, not in the script. And how do you know the studio was responsible for it?
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Old February 27 2013, 10:50 AM   #34
USS Firefly
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

The Data playing with the kid was pretty bad humor, or the boobs joke.
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Old February 27 2013, 11:20 AM   #35
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
The Data playing with the kid was pretty bad humor, or the boobs joke.
Insurrection: Don't think any of the jokes were in the least bit funny and that was the problem. There was an effort to cleanse away the serious and dark tone of First Contact but it went too far and the late 1990s were dark times and dark films were successful.

The only high point of Insurrection are the action scenes. The fight in the briar patch is pretty decent. And the same for Nemesis, the Scimitar vs. the two Rommie ships and the Enterprise E was worth the admission.

I recall seeing a lot of unhappy faces on fans' faces walking out at the end of Insurrection's premiere. It was brutal. My roommate and I convinced our other roommate to go to see a Trek movie for the first time and on the basis that First Contact rocked, we were sure the same would be true for this one. Afterwards she looked at us and said, "What the fuck, you guys?" The most entertaining element of the film for her was that hamster pet thing Data's friend had.

The funniest thing about Star Trek: Insurrection is the unproven rumor that the studio wanted to include the number in the name and Patrick Stewart pointed out to them that it would sound like the title of a pron flick: Star Trek Nine Inch Erection!!

And on a final note, the recent Star Trek TNG XXX porn had a more interesting story than either Insurrection or Nemesis combined.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
The older I get, the better the movie is. Our job is to be entertained, not keep the franchise alive. Enjoy each movie or series like it's the last one they will do. And be brutal about what they do right and what they do wrong.
Ummm... a few million Enterprise fans would like to have a word with you! I watched each episode like it was the last... and then, one day in 2005 it was the last.

Some Trek has aged better than others... but the I-X films are terrific overall. I just rewatched them all recently and found something new to appreciate in all of them.
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Old February 27 2013, 11:33 AM   #36
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Insurrection was the tailspin, and Nemesis was the franchise smashing into the ground.
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Old February 27 2013, 03:17 PM   #37
Gaith
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Geordi has eyes, for cry out loud. Disease--pick one--is all gone. It's not just a fountain-of-youth. We'll have our lifespans doubled. And all we have to do is kill, or move, these 600 people. And Picard continues to hold the Federation ideals. I don't care where it falls in the universe or the nitpickers of continuity. It is a good story.
I wish I could agree... but if it only takes a few days for Geordi to grow eyes, why can't spas and resorts be set up for the sick elsewhere on the planet?


USS Firefly wrote: View Post
The Data playing with the kid was pretty bad humor, or the boobs joke.
Neither of those are anywhere near as bad as Data the flotational device.

... And don't they have sophisticated, all-natural bosom maintenance in the future? If not, why are scientists puttering around building starships?!
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Old February 27 2013, 03:32 PM   #38
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Gaith wrote: View Post
I wish I could agree... but if it only takes a few days for Geordi to grow eyes, why can't spas and resorts be set up for the sick elsewhere on the planet?
They probably did with the understanding it did not impact the Ba'ku, it is probably what they were implying with Quark showing up in a deleted scene.

I think the whole problem was the Son'a, during the movie they mentioned for them (or at least a great many of them) it was too late and seeming they were the ones who wanted the planet (and Revenge) that was the only option to them.
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Old February 27 2013, 06:57 PM   #39
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

The Data playing with kids wasn't bad, IMO... but the boob joke, Worf with the pimples... yeeeah... awkward.
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Old February 27 2013, 07:45 PM   #40
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Dream wrote: View Post
The problem with Insurrection was that the story wasn't worth doing as a movie.

It was a big "WHO CARES"?

I don't understand why they just didn't dump it and start over with a more exciting story.
Agree, Insurrection was no more than a weak television episode and not worthy of a movie.
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Old February 28 2013, 01:11 PM   #41
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

What I never understood about Nemesis was why, when B4 was discovered, they all acted so surprised that there was another android like Data. Did they all just have their memories wiped in regards to Lore?

Perhaps it was explained somewhere other than the movie, but I just never understood that, strictly in the sense of the movie itself.

Anyone know anything about this?

And while I enjoyed INS I think there were elements that really did start to kill the chances for multiple future TNG movies. While there was some action, it just did't have a traditional Star Trek feel to it for me. I cared so little about the people on the planet that watching the movie more than once took great effort.

And was it in INS where Worf said to Picard, "If you were any other man I'd kill you where you stand"

Maybe its my distaste of all things Klingon but that line always bothered me...its insubordination! Sure Picard egged him on by calling Worg a coward, but Worf should have been the BETTER man and resisted the instinct to go off on his superior officer like that. Maybe its just my Army mind, but that always bothered me more than it should have for being one line in a movie.

Okay, I kind of rambled. Sorry.
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Old February 28 2013, 02:20 PM   #42
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

One bad unprofitable film doesn't kill a franchise. If it did, the James Bond series would have ended in 1974. Or Star Trek V would have been the final Trek movie. It wasn't Insurrection or Nemesis that caused the TNH films to fail, it was overall franchise fatigue. There was already too much bland Trek on TV - for free. Why would people rush out and pay to see more Star Trek when the various TV series aren't thrilling people? Nemesis bombed before anyone saw it - there was zero interest in the film during its opening weekend, not even fans came out (except me, I was there opening night in a pretty empty theater). Even Star Trek V had a big debut weekend; Nemesis had nothing. It was second to Maid in Manhattan, a crappy J-Lo rom-com. This had nothing to do with Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, people just didn't care. "I'll wait for the DVD" seemed to be the general feeling.

Insurrection wasn't a huge success, but people would still say "the last movie wasn't great, but maybe this one will be better" if they retained in interest in the series. The blandness of Voyager and Enterprise, regardless of their otherwise relative merits, got people tired of Star Trek (not enough of the public paid attention to DS9 for it to get any blame).

What got people interested in 2009 was the previews, which promised a thrilling, action packed, crowd pleasing film with young Kirk and Spock. No prior commitment to the franchise was required. Clean slate. People were excited over Trek, proving the concept is still appealing to people, but the style got stale. Star Trek was like a loaf of bread. Hot and fresh and delicious that, over time, got old, stale and moldy. It was time to bake a new loaf.
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Old February 28 2013, 06:08 PM   #43
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

In general, the movies that were "successful" in terms of audience satisfaction were those that built upon some element of a previous story from one of the TV series (TWoK, First Contact) or were direct sequels to an earlier movie (TSFS, TVH). Starting from scratch, the results weren't so satisfying (TMP, TFF, Generations, Insurrection, Nemesis). This seems pretty simple to me.

(Admittedly TUC doesn't quite fit the pattern; there is a preexisting element, the dead-David business, but it's not central to the story, just a convenient hook to hang Kirk's feelings about Klingons upon. Why was it satisfying - at least to some of us - although essentially a new story? What could later Trek feature writers have learned from TUC that they didn't learn?)
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Old February 28 2013, 06:13 PM   #44
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
Even Star Trek V had a big debut weekend; Nemesis had nothing.
Yes, but if TVH hadn't been (in the words of Shatner on Saturday Night Live at the time) "a huge hit," people wouldn't have been interested enough in TFF to make it number 1 for a week. Keep in mind also that four whole years passed between Insurrection (what a terrible title, oozing artistic compromise in a single word) and Nemesis, so even if the former had done quite well, its impact on Nemesis' fortunes would have been minimal.
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Old February 28 2013, 08:50 PM   #45
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

True, but most Trek movies had good box office on their opening weekends. A better promotional campaign might have heped Nemesis, but no Trek film, regardless of what movie came before, did as poorly as Nemesis on opening night. To me, that says "general audience and Trekkie apathy" more than anything else. You can't truly judge a film as crappy if you never see it.
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