RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,224
Posts: 5,405,578
Members: 24,764
Currently online: 406
Newest member: beakel001

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 16 2013, 04:06 AM   #16
Klaus
Rear Admiral
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Location: Beach condo, Bay of Eldamar
View Klaus's Twitter Profile
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

^^Many of the older shows the Pythons cited as influences, like Spike Milligan, are mostly gone... we're just lucky in this case.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
t-shirts!
deviantArt
Klaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16 2013, 04:28 AM   #17
throwback
Captain
 
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

To put this in perspective, Sophocles wrote over 100 plays. Someone thought that seven of his plays had value, and were subsequently preserved. This one example has been repeated throughout history. I am happy that we have as many Doctor Who episodes from that era. I would be enthusiastic if additional episodes were found.
throwback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16 2013, 05:15 AM   #18
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

throwback wrote: View Post
To put this in perspective, Sophocles wrote over 100 plays. Someone thought that seven of his plays had value, and were subsequently preserved. This one example has been repeated throughout history.
Well, others were preserved at various times, and subsequently lost at various times. For instance, the Library at Alexandria preserved official copies -- or even originals -- of the plays of Sophocles, Aeschylus, and Euripides, and considered them to be of such value that they were reluctant even to loan copies out to anyone. But not everyone values the same things, and those plays and a wealth of other knowledge were lost when the Christians took over Alexandria and burned the library's contents in their purges of pagan culture. There may have been other copies and collections that have been preserved and lost at various times; but those seven happened to be part of a compilation that existed recently enough to have survived to the present.

And so it is with the missing Doctor Who episodes. Which ones survived the purges and which ones didn't was more a matter of chance than deliberate selection.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16 2013, 07:44 AM   #19
Mr. Adventure
Admiral
 
Mr. Adventure's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Adventure
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

As time rolls on a lot of these old shows are more historical curiosities and artifacts than truly cherished anyway. I don't know if twenty, thirty years from how many people are going to be thinking wistfully about lost Troughton episodes.
Mr. Adventure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16 2013, 04:53 PM   #20
diankra
Commodore
 
Location: UK
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Well, that's impossible to say. If anything, I'd say the Troughton era seems to be more popular now than it was say 25 years ago, and in some ways it seems less dated than the 1980s episodes. Now whether that's just a natural function of distance (20 years old seems dated, 50 seems quaint, 75 seems... who knows yet? Prehistoric? Even better?) only time will tell...
__________________
"Some days are better than others. They say that where I come from."
"Loudly, I imagine, on the day you left."
(Blake's 7 - Rumours of Death)
diankra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17 2013, 11:06 PM   #21
Candlelight
Admiral
 
Candlelight's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Zeppster wrote: View Post
Finding episodes at this point is extremely hard unless we find out there were a lot more film technicians that were Doctor Who fans. Which we've found 2 in the last decade so you never know.
Were they fans though? Francis Watson grabbed the two episodes when being told to dispose of films in the projection room, and took them home to screen at his local film club.

Terry Burnett just happened to mention to Ralph Montagu that he had episodes in his collection.

I don't recall either of them stating they were fans of the series. Then again I didn't hear them say they weren't!
__________________
"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six."
Candlelight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 04:28 AM   #22
diankra
Commodore
 
Location: UK
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Yes, you're right to say that they weren't fans: if they had been, they'd have known the episodes were missing. They were just people who'd watched Doctor Who a bit and liked it enough to think that they might as well hold on to a spare copy that would otherwise go to the bin.
__________________
"Some days are better than others. They say that where I come from."
"Loudly, I imagine, on the day you left."
(Blake's 7 - Rumours of Death)
diankra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 01:02 PM   #23
Ar-Pharazon
Rear Admiral
 
Ar-Pharazon's Avatar
 
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

I must have read some mis-information on the longevity of early technicolor films.

The Vitaphone Project has located a complete Technicolor print of the long-lost Stooges 1933 MGM Colortone short HELLO POP! This is the only lost short with all three Stooges, and also stars Ted Healy and Henry Armetta. The 35mm nitrate print was found overseas and after some torturous steps to get the nitrate packaged and shipped, it is today safely in the hands of Eric Aijayla at YCM labs. Ned Price at WB has ensured the funding of the restoration, and ideally we could see this within a year. The sole known print burned in the big MGM fire in the 1960's.
What I don't get is, even in the 30's, there must have been at least dozens of copies of this short sent out to theaters when it was released. How is it there's only one copy left to get burned up in the 1960's?

Outside of the copy in Australia of course. Unless all copies were technicolor and they all disintegrated.

They can't have been as anal about keeping track of copies of films in the 30's as they are now.

I think this gives us hope that some of those missing Doctor Who episodes could turn up, if a 2-reeler missing for 50 years can be found.
__________________
Rimmer, on what period of history to live in-
“Well, It’d be the 19th century for me, one of Napoleon’s marshals.
The chance to march across Europe with the greatest general of all time and kill Belgians” - (White Hole).
Ar-Pharazon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 09:14 PM   #24
Candlelight
Admiral
 
Candlelight's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
I must have read some mis-information on the longevity of early technicolor films.

The Vitaphone Project has located a complete Technicolor print of the long-lost Stooges 1933 MGM Colortone short HELLO POP! This is the only lost short with all three Stooges, and also stars Ted Healy and Henry Armetta. The 35mm nitrate print was found overseas and after some torturous steps to get the nitrate packaged and shipped, it is today safely in the hands of Eric Aijayla at YCM labs. Ned Price at WB has ensured the funding of the restoration, and ideally we could see this within a year. The sole known print burned in the big MGM fire in the 1960's.
What I don't get is, even in the 30's, there must have been at least dozens of copies of this short sent out to theaters when it was released. How is it there's only one copy left to get burned up in the 1960's?

Outside of the copy in Australia of course. Unless all copies were technicolor and they all disintegrated.

They can't have been as anal about keeping track of copies of films in the 30's as they are now.

I think this gives us hope that some of those missing Doctor Who episodes could turn up, if a 2-reeler missing for 50 years can be found.
After the release in cinemas had ended there would be a request by the studio for those films to either be returned or destroyed (similar to what happened to Dr Who episodes). If a studio is sitting on 12 prints but only needs to retain one (IE the original negative for example) then the other 11 get junked, and in future if any re-release is sold then more copies are run off that surviving neg.

What they should have done - and a lot of companies do this these days, possibly from lessons learned from the MGM fire - is they'll have two vaults, in two different physical locations.

That way if one is lost the other still exists.

BBC Enterprises retained the 16mm negatives after the BBC engineering department had wiped the original quad master tapes, but after five years the rights to resell had expired, and so if there was no further use for the prints then they were junked.

There was some belief that Enterprises only ever had copies of films, and that other versions were still in existence elsewhere at the BBC. It's highly frustrating that there was no global system to keep track of all the episodes; although at the time the Dr Who production office only cared about the upcoming season, and not of episodes past.
__________________
"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six."
Candlelight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 11:46 PM   #25
Ar-Pharazon
Rear Admiral
 
Ar-Pharazon's Avatar
 
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

^ I just wonder, in the 1930's, how strict they were about getting those films returned, and how closely they could keep track of everything.

Today, I can totally see it, with all the technology & databases & licenses & anal nature about pirating.

And hey, some missing Doctor Who eps are rumored to be in Australia, maybe the same guy has some of those.
__________________
Rimmer, on what period of history to live in-
“Well, It’d be the 19th century for me, one of Napoleon’s marshals.
The chance to march across Europe with the greatest general of all time and kill Belgians” - (White Hole).
Ar-Pharazon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 12:27 AM   #26
Candlelight
Admiral
 
Candlelight's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

I keep hearing this rumour, what is it?

I mean it's likely either a hoax or someone mishearing the source of the 2011 discoveries was (likely) Australia.
__________________
"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six."
Candlelight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 12:58 AM   #27
diankra
Commodore
 
Location: UK
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Possibly a garbling of the old hopes about the Harriet Street store in New Zealand.
__________________
"Some days are better than others. They say that where I come from."
"Loudly, I imagine, on the day you left."
(Blake's 7 - Rumours of Death)
diankra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 02:08 AM   #28
Ar-Pharazon
Rear Admiral
 
Ar-Pharazon's Avatar
 
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Candlelight wrote: View Post
I keep hearing this rumour, what is it?

I mean it's likely either a hoax or someone mishearing the source of the 2011 discoveries was (likely) Australia.
I keep "hearing" the rumor too. No idea if it's true.

But Oz was the main place, outside of the UK, that got Doctor Who episodes in that era (as a former colony?), and thus likelier to have them still around somewhere.

I think the hope is, they didn't destroy them.

The US didn't get anything till the mid 70's, I think, so probably no chance any of those missing eps are here.
__________________
Rimmer, on what period of history to live in-
“Well, It’d be the 19th century for me, one of Napoleon’s marshals.
The chance to march across Europe with the greatest general of all time and kill Belgians” - (White Hole).
Ar-Pharazon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28 2013, 02:31 AM   #29
Candlelight
Admiral
 
Candlelight's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Candlelight wrote: View Post
I keep hearing this rumour, what is it?

I mean it's likely either a hoax or someone mishearing the source of the 2011 discoveries was (likely) Australia.
I keep "hearing" the rumor too. No idea if it's true.

But Oz was the main place, outside of the UK, that got Doctor Who episodes in that era (as a former colony?), and thus likelier to have them still around somewhere.

I think the hope is, they didn't destroy them.

The US didn't get anything till the mid 70's, I think, so probably no chance any of those missing eps are here.
http://missingepisodes.blogspot.co.n...anyprints.html

A large chunk of the Australian episodes were sent back to the UK in 1975. A handful of episodes (The Chase 1, The Celestial Toymaker 4, The War Machines 2 and The Faceless Ones 1 off the top of my head) stayed in Australia. Others were confirmed as destroyed or sent to New Zealand (in terms of missing stories only The Reign of Terror was in this batch, and the NZBC destroyed these copies in 1971).

In terms of main buyers, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore (and later Hong Kong) were the big broadcasters. Singapore in particular as they're the last known buyers of such stories as The Tenth Planet and The Power of the Daleks...

Sierra Leone retained a batch of most of Season Three but their archive was destroyed in a civil war in 1999.
__________________
"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six."
Candlelight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 30 2013, 02:58 AM   #30
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Missing episode recoveries history

Hope it's okay to bump this thread, but I didn't want to start a new one for this question:

Was episode 1 of "The Mind Robber" still missing after the rest had been recovered? I just watched it on Netflix streaming, and I'm pretty certain I've never seen part 1 before. Watching the episodes in "movie" format on PBS, I remember the story beginning with the TARDIS exploding in the black void and Jamie and Zoe clinging to the console, which is the start of part 2. So was episode 1 missing in the '80s, or was there another reason it wasn't included in the "movie" edit distributed at the time?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:52 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.