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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 27 2013, 04:32 PM   #16
Jeyl
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

Well, if the mass audience doesn't know what the Dominion War is, by all means let that be a license to discount continuity. The problem with directions like that is that you're not making your story set in a vast continuity important, you're making it out of place and overall forgettable. Nothing gained, nothing earned.

Why not open the film Star Wars style by giving a text explanation on what the Federation and the rest of the galaxy have been up to? Star Trek has done it before.

They came from an unexplored region of the galaxy.
A force known as the dominion has declared war on the Federation.
With the recent Borg attack, the Federation's numbers are thin and their allies scattered.

And if audiences like what they see in the Dominion, they'll have an entire series that focuses on the Dominion.
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Old February 27 2013, 04:46 PM   #17
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Dominion War. He was given access because he fought major engagements in the war, I believe 8. He was a General before he came to power, before he freed the Remans.
Which would make sense when Shinzon was hated by the Romulans and left in the mines to die.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
The meat of the story is whether Picard would be this man if he hadn't had his upbringing. Jean-Luc seems to think it's innate, his goodness. And, therefore, he can reach Shinzon.
And that amounted to what? The old, tired "I will kill you!" schtick. You would think that Picard's artificial heart would have given Picard a tangible example on how events of one's life can change how their entire perspective, but no. Picard actually says that Shinzon's heart is the same as his.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Shinzon is searching for his place in the galaxy.
Since Shinzon is the ruler of the Romulan and Reman Empire and controls one of the most powerful ships in Star Trek, I think his place in the galaxy is solidified. How much better can a man get than going from slave to ruler over your oppressors?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
That's an old story, but one that's more intelligent than Generations' "I don't want to get old" story. Or "let's dominate the planet in the past" story of First Contact.
Except that there was more to First Contact than just "dominate the planet in the past". It was a tale of a Captain going to great lengths for vengeance against a foe that violated and used him in the past. It wasa also about a man who cannot see past his own selfish ambitions and what effect his actions will have on the future of humanity. And my personal favorite, a story about a man who long believed that humanity was so perfect that they would one day be like angels and gods and that their past selfs were so infantile and self-destructive, soon turned into something worse. And the real kicker? It took one of those people to show how infantile and self-destructive he had become.
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Old February 27 2013, 05:12 PM   #18
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

Had they wanted to do a movie that ended the Dominion War it should've been a DS9 movie, TNG had nothing to do with the Dominion or the war. I do like how the E-E was kept on the sidelines, doing all the public relations stuff, kept away from the fighting more for morale back home than anything else--though it did seem pretty pointless to have such a large, well-armed ship doing milk runs (but a bit of propaganda is necessary from time to time).
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Old February 27 2013, 06:46 PM   #19
HaventGotALife
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

Jeyl wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Dominion War. He was given access because he fought major engagements in the war, I believe 8. He was a General before he came to power, before he freed the Remans.
Which would make sense when Shinzon was hated by the Romulans and left in the mines to die.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
The meat of the story is whether Picard would be this man if he hadn't had his upbringing. Jean-Luc seems to think it's innate, his goodness. And, therefore, he can reach Shinzon.
And that amounted to what? The old, tired "I will kill you!" schtick. You would think that Picard's artificial heart would have given Picard a tangible example on how events of one's life can change how their entire perspective, but no. Picard actually says that Shinzon's heart is the same as his.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Shinzon is searching for his place in the galaxy.
Since Shinzon is the ruler of the Romulan and Reman Empire and controls one of the most powerful ships in Star Trek, I think his place in the galaxy is solidified. How much better can a man get than going from slave to ruler over your oppressors?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
That's an old story, but one that's more intelligent than Generations' "I don't want to get old" story. Or "let's dominate the planet in the past" story of First Contact.
Except that there was more to First Contact than just "dominate the planet in the past". It was a tale of a Captain going to great lengths for vengeance against a foe that violated and used him in the past. It wasa also about a man who cannot see past his own selfish ambitions and what effect his actions will have on the future of humanity. And my personal favorite, a story about a man who long believed that humanity was so perfect that they would one day be like angels and gods and that their past selfs were so infantile and self-destructive, soon turned into something worse. And the real kicker? It took one of those people to show how infantile and self-destructive he had become.
And it was a ripoff, a tired comparison to Moby Dick. The second such movie, in Star Trek, to do so. I don't find that at all interesting. I hate First Contact because it ruins the Borg by giving us someone to talk to. They tell Zephrame Cochrane exactly who he will be in the future. And it amounts to the darkest of the Trek movies. If they had just told the story of the first launch without Picard and company becoming involved, I could understand that. I would like that movie. But this didn't do that. It was a cheap, ordinary Star Trek movie.

As for whether Shinzon should be made a General, he was supposed to die and they found he was a great tactician. Remember, the Remans were used as "cannon fodder" during the war. The Romulans wanted to win the war more than they wanted to oppress the Remans. AND he's not Reman, he's a human.
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Old February 28 2013, 05:14 PM   #20
Jeyl
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Had they wanted to do a movie that ended the Dominion War it should've been a DS9 movie, TNG had nothing to do with the Dominion or the war.
Probably because Picard told Starfleet that when he was inside the Nexus, he tried to convince Guinan to come help him in a fist fight that he lost.
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Old March 1 2013, 05:58 AM   #21
sonak
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Had they wanted to do a movie that ended the Dominion War it should've been a DS9 movie, TNG had nothing to do with the Dominion or the war.
Probably because Picard told Starfleet that when he was inside the Nexus, he tried to convince Guinan to come help him in a fist fight that he lost.


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Old March 4 2013, 03:42 PM   #22
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

los2188 wrote: View Post
I'm just curious. I've heard it mentioned once before, but I never actually read any serious discussions about this, but should Insurrection have been something involving the Dominion War? Maybe a movie meant to close the Dominion War. Possibily brining in a few DS9 characters to finish the war? I can't say that I would have been for that direction at the time the movie was released because I wasn't in to DS9, but hind-sight being 20/20, now I would have LOVED to have seen it. What does anyone else think? I apologize if this thread has been discussed.
Yes. Star Trek's biggest mistake in the last 30 years was not using the Dominion in ST movies. It would have kept the STNG movies going for at least one more film and all would have made profit.
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Old March 5 2013, 08:15 AM   #23
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

What is more valuable to the Federation: Ketracel White production or Metaphasic radiation?

By the former, I mean not actually using it (because the UFP wouldn't actually have need to use it) but they would want to control it
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Old March 6 2013, 03:49 PM   #24
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

The general public didn't need to know exactly what the Dominion was on TV, only that the condition of war existed already, and the story would have been self-contained but on a larger canvas. I feel the interest of the three-tiered enemy, it's ships and tech and greater inherent gravity in-universe would be apparent.
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Old March 6 2013, 09:03 PM   #25
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

I'm far from convinced that this could work. The Stargate made-for-TV features are just as bad as the Babylon 5 ones, despite having a well-conceived mythos full of powerful characters and concepts. Just adding a feature budget for better sets and effects did nothing for them - because the hook in all this "mythos" business was that it was built piece by piece, episode by episode, in a great arc that obviously was not preplanned or even particularly well thought out, but was all the more consistent and innovative for it. Every revelation in a new episode was calculated to outdo the previous one, to throw a curveball, or to tingle a nerve tuned to an already familiar character or concept not seen for a long time.

None of this would be possible in a feature film, which has to offer it all in a nice package. There's nothing epic about such packages; epics call for worlds that the audience sees for the very first time in the feature at hand (regardless of whether these are all-new fiction or an interpretation of historical fact or preexisting mythology).

If Trek needed a war movie, the war should have been introduced in the movie. With a long and epic backstory, of course - but one never actually offered to the audience before this.

I mean, has a "conclusion" movie worked, like, ever?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old March 7 2013, 07:21 AM   #26
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

RAMA wrote: View Post
The general public didn't need to know exactly what the Dominion was on TV, only that the condition of war existed already, and the story would have been self-contained but on a larger canvas. I feel the interest of the three-tiered enemy, it's ships and tech and greater inherent gravity in-universe would be apparent.

^
Look at notable war movies and tv series' of our era. Here is a sample; War Horse, Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, The Longest Day, Band of Brothers and the Pacific. How many of them go in to specific detail about why each conflict was started and how many of them show a resolution to the overall war between nations in their depictions? Not many and yet the audiences are never lost and each movie reaches financial and critical acclaim.

For something like Star Trek a padded, hand holding opening like what LOTR Fellowship of the Ring did. Spending the first 10 minutes laying down the foundation of what the conflict was about with narration and depiction could've worked. When the bulk of your target audience (general not the fans) isn't familiar with the material (i.e haven't read the LOTR books, or watch DS9). An opening showing the audience what is going on between the Fed and the Dom could've worked. You really only need to paint a picture of the Dom as the antagonist since the Fed and Ent-E crew is already known as the protagonists. Similar to other war films, TNG vs Dominion film doesnt have to end with the resolution of the entire war. It can just be an adventure drama that climaxes with a grand battle like most war films.
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Old March 7 2013, 07:29 AM   #27
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I continue to be amazed at fans that kill Insurrection for being too small and to light, but also don't like Nemesis... So if it's just about the stakes, I don't see how you can criticize both.
Don't think I've seen anyone claim that it's just about stakes. They were both crappy movies, they were just crappy in different ways.
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Old March 7 2013, 07:35 AM   #28
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

-Brett- wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I continue to be amazed at fans that kill Insurrection for being too small and to light, but also don't like Nemesis... So if it's just about the stakes, I don't see how you can criticize both.
Don't think I've seen anyone claim that it's just about stakes. They were both crappy movies, they were just crappy in different ways.
You have to admit though. A lot of the scenes with the ENT crew defending the Ba'ku do look pathetic and unworthy of film. Worf's purple laser bazooka, the jumping stuntmen, Data jumping and rolling action movie style to shoot at a tag drone, Doctor Crusher using a phaser rifle, Ba'ku being all hippy white people and falling over and such while they run. Especially the little kids. GAh there is more but gah that movie kills me with these scenes. NEM's take no prisoners action was much better suited for a film with stakes, NEM just doesn't feel as big as it could've been.
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Old March 7 2013, 04:13 PM   #29
sonak
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I continue to be amazed at fans that kill Insurrection for being too small and to light, but also don't like Nemesis... So if it's just about the stakes, I don't see how you can criticize both.
Don't think I've seen anyone claim that it's just about stakes. They were both crappy movies, they were just crappy in different ways.
You have to admit though. A lot of the scenes with the ENT crew defending the Ba'ku do look pathetic and unworthy of film. Worf's purple laser bazooka, the jumping stuntmen, Data jumping and rolling action movie style to shoot at a tag drone, Doctor Crusher using a phaser rifle, Ba'ku being all hippy white people and falling over and such while they run. Especially the little kids. GAh there is more but gah that movie kills me with these scenes. NEM's take no prisoners action was much better suited for a film with stakes, NEM just doesn't feel as big as it could've been.

I think the difference between NEM and INS was that NEM at least had the right ingredients. It failed in the execution of the story in a lot of ways, but even on its budget, it feels big and cinematic, worthy of a movie.

INS didn't even have the right ingredients for success. It was too obviously made to be a contrast to FC-light, fluffy, and insubstantial where FC was dark and ambitious, and INS also had a poorly thought out premise that just couldn't have been made to work.
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Old March 7 2013, 04:55 PM   #30
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Re: Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

Hmm. For me, INS has generally been one of the better thought out plots in Star Trek. It confuses a lot of people because nothing is what it seems at first.

First, there are disguises and camouflages - invisible invaders walking among the unsuspecting. Then, there are hidden truths about the nature and identity of the victims, some revealed at this stage, some not. Then, further disguises and camouflages - invisible ships under water. Then, major revelations about the nature and identity of the villains. The proper response of a hero to the events depends on what he knows; what's proper in Act 1 turns out to have been dead wrong in Act 3 and so forth. Everybody is being played for sucker right down to the second-to-last act where the villains finally get a taste of their own medicine.

"Layers" is different from "depth", but it tends to be more interesting, and perhaps more lasting.

Not to say that a TNG movie couldn't have done a "layered" plot on the Dominion War, of course. But no good war movie ever featured a clever plot that dictates the outcome of the war - that's downright cartoony. Good war movies may instead use wars as backdrops for clever plots that dictate major turns in the lives of the interesting characters, after which the war either goes on or ends all on its own.

Timo Saloniemi
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