RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,242
Posts: 5,438,846
Members: 24,958
Currently online: 470
Newest member: greatmovies

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 27 2013, 04:45 AM   #121
Jan
Commodore
 
Jan's Avatar
 
Location: ...is insane. --JMS
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
How much was in JMS's pitch/package to Paramount? Did he include every single trap door and branching storyline? The series was originally about Sinclair,
. Instead, they just moved that up and crafted a totally new ending for Sheridan IIRC.
Nope. That's a common assumption that's completely wrong.


As for what JMS gave to Paramount, it would be the series Treatment, the Pilot script, some concept art by Peter Ledger and probably a dozen or so episode pitches.

As for another poster's comment about a shapeshifter, the early drafts of 'The Gathering' did indeed feature a shape shifter which was changed to the assassin using the changeling net at WBs request. But it would pretty certainly have been in the script accompanying the series treatment.

Jan
Jan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 04:48 AM   #122
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

Here's where DS9 came from:

Rick Berman and Michael Piller made it up.

The problem there, of course, is that if you accuse two people by name and publicly of stealing like that it can get pretty sticky.

"Asking questions" about unidentified, shadowy executives, OTOH, avoids those problems while being impossible to refute. Glenn Beck has built a career on it.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 04:54 AM   #123
Kestrel
Vice Admiral
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Location: East Tennessee
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I think the shapeshifters comment was a worse comparison. It's one instance JMS memorably lost his shit over but it doesn't hold up at all.

DS9 has a shape-shifter as one of the main characters. He physically changes his form (Rarely!) throughout the series and his mysterious past is the key to the threat to the Alpha Quadrant.

B5 has a forgettable henchman use a shape-shifting device in one episode.
Heh, good point
__________________
"If Romeo had just masturbated a couple of times a week he would have saved both those nice families a heap of trouble."
Kestrel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 05:00 AM   #124
sidious618
Admiral
 
sidious618's Avatar
 
Location: New York, US
Send a message via AIM to sidious618
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

While there are a lot of similarities between the two shows, I can't see what Paramount would gain from copying a script for a television show that had nothing to do with and, by all predictions, would end up going nowhere.
__________________
We've met before, haven't we?
sidious618 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 05:36 AM   #125
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

There is one significant point of comparison between the two series - only one - and the entirety of "Paramount stole this" originally hung on that premise: they are both set on space stations. This was a departure for Star Trek; Berman and Piller reasoned their way to it in a fashion similar to the way that jms supposedly did.

That only sounds suspicious if you've never been through the process of reading spec scripts, for example, or slush pile manuscripts for an sf magazine. There's a fairly good - if brutal - short essay by John August here that addresses an instance of how ideas parallel one another when working within the same envelope and toward a similar target.

B5 was going to be a show that solved a lot of the budget and logistics problems of doing future-based "space opera" stuff like Star Trek, and key to the solution (at least as far as pitching it was concerned) was that the expense of building an elaborate "home base" would be amortized by making that the primary location - the action comes to us rather than us going to the action.

Berman and Piller had exactly the same problem to solve based on their years of experience actually doing a Star Trek show. If you buy the notion that using a space station was a flash of unreproducable brilliance as opposed to what it actually is - a fairly easily deduced solution to production cost problems - then you might more easily swallow the notion that coincidence is less likely than unnecessary and illogical theft of a simple idea.

But the truth of this situation doesn't hang on what you're willing to believe. Some things actually happened, and other things didn't.

Last edited by Admiral Buzzkill; February 27 2013 at 05:51 AM.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 09:10 AM   #126
_C_
Commander
 
_C_'s Avatar
 
Location: _C_
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

Oh but what I would have given to see Odo and Kosh Naranek in the same room! LOL! Or better yet, Odo linking with a Vorlon ship! (They're both kinda liquid aren't they?!)
__________________
_C_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 02:46 PM   #127
EnsignRicky
Commodore
 
EnsignRicky's Avatar
 
Location: Pre-Apocalyptic Earth
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

Stealing the idea of the moment is nothing new.

Back To The Future - Bill And Ted

Weird Science - My Science Project

Titanic Movie - Made For TV Titanic Movie

Deep Impact - Armageddon

Gremlins - Ghoulies - Critters - Hobgoblins - Munchies

Volcano - Dante's Peak

Prequelmania - Enterprise

Abraham Lincoln - Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter

Hansel And Gretel Witch Hunters - Hansel And Gretel Get Baked

I'm sure there are and will be many more.
__________________
Use Only As Directed
EnsignRicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 03:03 PM   #128
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

None of which has anything to do with the DS9/B5 non-thing.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 03:24 PM   #129
Nagisa Furukawa
Commander
 
Nagisa Furukawa's Avatar
 
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
None of which has anything to do with the DS9/B5 non-thing.
Nor did how well Lord of the Rings did financially vs. Babylon 5 though. Arguably way less, as at least Ensign Ricky is bringing up comparable, almost-around-the-same-time works of art. There seemed to be no reason for you to bring up that Babylon 5 wasn't as successful as LotR (and who would imagine it would be?! B5 was a cheap science-fiction show, Lord of the Rings was one of the best works of the 20th century by one of the best populist writers).
__________________
I am the one who guided you this far.
Nagisa Furukawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 05:00 PM   #130
Demiurge
Vice Admiral
 
Location: with Kitty and Roo!
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Z'ha'dum is the place where the hero falls to his death and is resurrected, only to leave for the distant land with the elder races at the end of his journey.

Oh, wait.
Which come to think of it was also exactly what happened to Sisko in the fire caves at the end of DS9.
Demiurge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 06:31 PM   #131
Kestrel
Vice Admiral
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Location: East Tennessee
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

One critical difference - with Sisko there would have been no "coming back" at all without Avery Brooks specifically saying so. And his reasoning was pretty much as far as possible from "Oh that's what Babylon 5 and Lord of the Rings did."
__________________
"If Romeo had just masturbated a couple of times a week he would have saved both those nice families a heap of trouble."
Kestrel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 07:08 PM   #132
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Ensign Ricky is bringing up comparable, almost-around-the-same-time works of art.
Nope. You following the conversation?
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 07:25 PM   #133
JoeD80
Captain
 
Location: Los Angeles
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
Let me bold this:
There's no association with DS9 or Babylon 5 with UPN or WB!
Well let me bold this. There is an association of Babylon 5 with PTEN! PTEN was owned jointly by Chris-Craft and Warner Bros. Who started UPN? Chris-Craft and Paramount. That's where the connection is; at the station level, not the studio level.

DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
And B5, despite being produced by Warner Bros, aired on a UPN affiliate in my area.
Yes, because UPN didn't have a full schedule at the time.

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
There is one significant point of comparison between the two series - only one - and the entirety of "Paramount stole this" originally hung on that premise: they are both set on space stations.
There was not only one. The name Babylon was picked because it means "Gate of God." Why is that? Because there was a jump gate next to the station. What's next to DS9? Why it's a wormhole! Did you know that both Sinclair and Sisko were widowed? Why yes, Sinclair had a dead wife in the original treatment. Does any of this mean anything? I don't know, probably not, but there were more points of comparison than *just the station*.

Also, not directed at you specifically, but I always find it interesting when people talk like Piller and Berman had no idea who jms was. Joe's wife worked for Piller at the time. Piller talked about that in an interview back then (not sure where that one was originally published but you can find it in Joe Nazzaro's writing for Science Fiction book.)
JoeD80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 08:49 PM   #134
FPAlpha
Rear Admiral
 
FPAlpha's Avatar
 
Location: Mannheim, Germany
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

Oh come on.. give it a rest.

There were similarities, that's certain. But they are superficial and the main stories diverge extremely because they have a totally different focus and style to them. The characters are also very different.. yes, Sisko has lost his wife too, so what? It's an age old tool to give a character a chip on his shoulder, a background and some drama (especially if the wife died violently and the character meets the killer at some point). B5 didn't invent that, DS9 didn't and it has been used since boths shows started.. you don't see other people get up in arms when those shows aired crying "But my show's main character also has a dead wife/husband/relative!!!"

I fear however that given the people in fandom that this topic will never be settled because some people can't let stuff go, much less the creator of B5 (for whatever reason.. he created a brilliant story and people talk about his show nearly 20 years after it concluded and that's not bad).

I prefer B5 for its overal story which had me glued to the screen much more than DS9 but then again DS9 had the far more rounded characters and better played by the actors (with the exception of Mollari/G'Kar who are both the coolest duo ever in SF and were played to perfection by Jurasik/Katsulas).

So why don't we enjoy both shows equally for what they were.. flawed at times but providing excellent SF entertainment.
__________________
"But that emergency was supposed to be the fall of an Avenger!" Phil Coulson
"Exactly!"
Nick Fury
FPAlpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27 2013, 08:57 PM   #135
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Joe's wife worked for Piller at the time. Piller talked about that in an interview back then...
One reason, in fact, that folks at Trek were impatient with the pretense that the B5 people didn't know exactly where DS9 came from.

But then, that bit of info would have screwed up a perfectly good conspiracy theory.

It's hard to say whether the Trek producers were simply incredibly polite in tolerating this whole thing or they simply had better ways to spend their energies than to engage in a stupid pretend controversy on computer bulletin board services. Some of each, I suppose.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
babylon 5, ds9

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.