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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 25 2013, 05:54 PM   #16
JediKnightButler
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

After FC, INS was a pretty big letdown but it still felt like a ST:TNG story. Nem, aside from a few parts, was a mess IMHO, particularly given the continuity issues (Romulans, Data/B4). After having so many stories over the years about Klingons and other species, I was pleased that they had finally decided to have a movie featuring Romulans.......except it didn't really. It primarily featured a human Picard clone (who wasn't really a clone-Patrick Stewart playing both roles would've been better IMHO) and a whole other race that we hadn't heard about as the primary adversaries. Next up we have ANOTHER Data clone that isn't Lore (what a wicked twist it would have been if it was) that we had never heard about before either. Had integrating the story and characters into it not been too difficult, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges into a full-length movie would've been a better Romulan story IMHO. A post-Dominion War storyline involving the Romulans (one of the few remaining AQ powers following the DW as Sloan correctly predicted) was a good idea but executed terribly, unfortunately.

What's funny is that we get a Romulan adversary for the NEXT movie as well but, again, he is an outcast as well. The political intrigue stories on TNG/DS9 were what made the Romulans so interesting and would've helped make NEM better IMHO.
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Old February 25 2013, 06:13 PM   #17
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Nemesis, but Insurrection but it in a vulnerable position.

There was the four year gap to try and build up anticipation, and if it was a good film it could have worked. Also, I remember the old joke of "it's a even number so it'll be good" going around, so fans hoped the series could be saved.

But then it came out. Introduced the weird sister race to the Romulans, which lost a lot of the impact of using them. Tom Hardy as a young Picard cloen could have been brilliant, and by the look of the test footage, it very well could have been. We know from his more recent work he can be amazing, but whether it was his serious drug problems or the director it went wrong. Costume designer didn't help either.

That said, Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner did want off. Spiner in particular was getting very aware that he couldn't be an un-ageing android any more. That's why Data died, though why they then introduced B4 never made any sense to me. I always assumed it was a Get Out of Jail Free Card that some execs insisted upon.
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Old February 25 2013, 08:09 PM   #18
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
It primarily featured a human Picard clone (who wasn't really a clone-Patrick Stewart playing both roles would've been better IMHO)
Yes! I don't understand why they didn't just do this. Perhaps the studio, writers or somebody believes for movies there always needs to be a guest star villain? Perhaps to draw in a wider audience? Who knows. That seems to be the pattern for the most part. Anyway, I also think the film would have been much improved with Stewart as the clone.

JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
ANOTHER Data clone that isn't Lore (what a wicked twist it would have been if it was)
This too!
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Old February 26 2013, 05:49 PM   #19
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

From what I remember locally (in the UK) when Nemesis came around there was very little interest in a Star Trek movie, I went to see it a couple of days after it came out and there were very few people there (3 and then myself and my friend). Compare this to a Star Wars movie or most other films and you see that no one cared.

If you want to blame one of the films you have to blame the film before it, people went to see it and didnt enjoy it, so why go and see a sequel?

The Star Trek franchise had run its course and become stale as well as having a massive stigma attached to it...I enjoyed the last 2 movies, they werent amazing Trek but good Trek, the general audience plus many other Star Trek fans didnt agree and from what I saw didnt bother to even see Nemesis at its release.
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Old February 26 2013, 09:24 PM   #20
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

@ dub: It shoulda been Mirror Picard!
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Old February 26 2013, 10:30 PM   #21
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Gaith wrote: View Post
@ dub: It shoulda been Mirror Picard!
...and perhaps Mirror Data too instead of B4!
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Old February 26 2013, 10:57 PM   #22
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

starburst wrote: View Post
From what I remember locally (in the UK) when Nemesis came around there was very little interest in a Star Trek movie, I went to see it a couple of days after it came out and there were very few people there (3 and then myself and my friend). Compare this to a Star Wars movie or most other films and you see that no one cared.

If you want to blame one of the films you have to blame the film before it, people went to see it and didnt enjoy it, so why go and see a sequel?
I agree that a previous effort could certainly hold some sway over whether people are interested in the current one. When Doctor Who was un-cancelled after it's unpopular 22nd season in 1985, ratings for Season 23 the following year were less than half of their previous level -- I don't blame Season 23 for that, I blame Season 22. There is also the factor of Enterprise being perceived as something of a failure on television at the time, which can't have impacted positively on "Nemesis" at all.

It isn't a hard-and-fast rule, though. "The Final Frontier" was a failure at the box-office despite "The Voyage Home" being a smash hit. I think "Nemesis" faced a similar challenge. "The Final Frontier" was released at the same time we saw so many blockbuster movies (Batman, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Ghostbusters II) that it just couldn't compete, not actually being one of those blockbusters itself. IMO, "Nemesis" faced similar opposition from the likes of LOTR: The Two Towers and the (then) latest Star Wars prequel. Alongside an apparent general apathy with Star Trek among the public at the time, it didn't have a hope in hell of making an impact.

Star Trek 2009 had the benefit of being released at a time sufficiently distanced from the bad karma associated with the TNG movies, and at a time when it could also reposition itself as a contender against blockbusters like those listed above. As much as the public had a fondness for the series, I don't think any of the Trek movies before 2009 were really in that kind of position. They were always little movies that punched above their weight (the TNG movies possibly even more so).
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Old February 26 2013, 11:19 PM   #23
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Lance wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
From what I remember locally (in the UK) when Nemesis came around there was very little interest in a Star Trek movie, I went to see it a couple of days after it came out and there were very few people there (3 and then myself and my friend). Compare this to a Star Wars movie or most other films and you see that no one cared.

If you want to blame one of the films you have to blame the film before it, people went to see it and didnt enjoy it, so why go and see a sequel?
I agree that a previous effort could certainly hold some sway over whether people are interested in the current one. When Doctor Who was un-cancelled after it's unpopular 22nd season in 1985, ratings for Season 23 the following year were less than half of their previous level -- I don't blame Season 23 for that, I blame Season 22. There is also the factor of Enterprise being perceived as something of a failure on television at the time, which can't have impacted positively on "Nemesis" at all.

It isn't a hard-and-fast rule, though. "The Final Frontier" was a failure at the box-office despite "The Voyage Home" being a smash hit. I think "Nemesis" faced a similar challenge. "The Final Frontier" was released at the same time we saw so many blockbuster movies (Batman, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Ghostbusters II) that it just couldn't compete, not actually being one of those blockbusters itself. IMO, "Nemesis" faced similar opposition from the likes of LOTR: The Two Towers and the (then) latest Star Wars prequel. Alongside an apparent general apathy with Star Trek among the public at the time, it didn't have a hope in hell of making an impact.

Star Trek 2009 had the benefit of being released at a time sufficiently distanced from the bad karma associated with the TNG movies, and at a time when it could also reposition itself as a contender against blockbusters like those listed above. As much as the public had a fondness for the series, I don't think any of the Trek movies before 2009 were really in that kind of position. They were always little movies that punched above their weight (the TNG movies possibly even more so).
If a movie is good, people go and see it. If it's shit, they stay home. It's really that simple.

Ultimately, the reason ST09 did as well as it did is because it is the best film of the bunch. There, I said it.
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Old February 26 2013, 11:39 PM   #24
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

ST09 did well because we got to see Young Uhura without her clothes on. The Final Frontier didn't do well... because we got to see Old Uhura without her clothes on.
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Old February 26 2013, 11:53 PM   #25
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Lance wrote: View Post
ST09 did well because we got to see Young Uhura without her clothes on. The Final Frontier didn't do well... because we got to see Old Uhura without her clothes on.


But the 2009 film did well because for the first time in a long time, it made Star Trek fun.
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Old February 27 2013, 12:16 AM   #26
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Both.
^ This!

Insurrection was a weak story and a weak film.

Nemesis was a very bad story and un-entertaining - I almost walked out of the theater.

I didn't even think of walking out of the theater for Final Frontier, and it wasn't that good either...
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Old February 27 2013, 01:18 AM   #27
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

I'm afraid a few issues aside, I liked Nemesis enough to go see it more than once.

Well, there's only one... Yes, I remember few members in the audience on those occasions too.

Insurrection was the film I thought wasn't a strong enough follow up to First Contact. Any harder edge to it got sugar coated. Nemesis had that mid-to-late 90s darkness going on for the film to have been reasonably popular, had it arrived sooner. By 2002 we had more than enough darkness to be going on with, in real life.

They're the right films, in the wrong order.
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Old February 27 2013, 01:38 AM   #28
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Insurrection obviously hurt the movie series. It followed the previous film, a hit, by increasing the budget and decreasing the box office. This led Paramount to budget Nemesis at ten million less than Insurrection (the first time since The Wrath of Khan that an installment in the franchise cost less than its predecessor).

Still, Nemesis was made, so Insurrection obviously didn't kill the TNG movie series. Nemesis did that. Clearly, they wanted to make another movie -- the tagline, after all, was "A Generation's Final Journey Begins" -- but neither the box office nor the reviews warranted another movie. And that was that.
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Old February 27 2013, 02:29 AM   #29
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

StarCruiser wrote: View Post
Insurrection was a weak story and a weak film.
Partially correct, Insurrection possessed a very interesting story and had some nice ethical questions for our heroes. I liked the way that (probably unintentionally) it wasn't clear who the "good guys" were, who you were supposed to be rooting for.

Execution of this story, transferring it onto the screen, was poorly done.

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Old February 27 2013, 03:24 AM   #30
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Now, from the people who made this crap - the sequel to that other crap!
You are not kidding!
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