Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? - Page 8

C.E. Evans · February 25 2013, 11:52 PM

J.T.B. wrote:

C.E. Evans wrote:

The only established precedent about Starfleet uniforms is that they frequently change. In light of any onscreen explanation for why they change, all we can go on is speculation and change just for the sake of change is as valid an idea as any other.

No, it's really not as valid as any other.

Of course it is. You may not like it, but things do happen for arbitrary reasons or simply for reasons you disagree with.

BillJ · February 25 2013, 11:58 PM

J.T.B. wrote:

C.E. Evans wrote:

The only established precedent about Starfleet uniforms is that they frequently change. In light of any onscreen explanation for why they change, all we can go on is speculation and change just for the sake of change is as valid an idea as any other.

No, it's really not as valid as any other. Large organizations with vast assets and many thousands of personnel do not make large institutional changes just for the sake of change, that's just not realistic.

Yet we watch Starfleet do it all the time.

J.T.B. · February 26 2013, 12:06 AM

C.E. Evans wrote:

Of course it is. You may not like it, but things do happen for arbitrary reasons or simply for reasons you disagree with.

We may not know the reason, but that's not the same as saying that things happen for no real reason other than change for its own sake. If you think Starfleet is the kind of organization where the top admiral can wake up one morning and say, "I think we need a change. Fancy maroon uniforms for everyone, make it so!" then you picture a very different type of organization than I do.

C.E. Evans · February 26 2013, 12:39 AM

J.T.B. wrote:

C.E. Evans wrote:

Of course it is. You may not like it, but things do happen for arbitrary reasons or simply for reasons you disagree with.

We may not know the reason, but that's not the same as saying that things happen for no real reason other than change for its own sake.

But change for its own sake is indeed as real a reason as any other.

If you think Starfleet is the kind of organization where the top admiral can wake up one morning and say, "I think we need a change. Fancy maroon uniforms for everyone, make it so!" then you picture a very different type of organization than I do.

I see Starfleet as it's own thing. And truly, the reason for the change of uniforms in TWOK could really be as simple as a decision from TPTB to give Starfleet personnel a public makeover after the TMP uniforms had run their course.

Therin of Andor · February 26 2013, 12:43 AM

J.T.B. wrote:

Large organizations with vast assets and many thousands of personnel do not make large institutional changes just for the sake of change, that's just not realistic.

And yet ST:TMP established that Starfleet vessels had "spray 'n' wear" clothing. See the Ilia Probe cool-down sequence. (The novelization and background press releases explained a lot of what we were seeing.) Surely uniform redesigns in this era are a simple matter of changing a computer command?

How often do we see airlines change all their flight attendants uniforms? Fashions change quickly and corporate uniforms can become dated if they don't keep pace.

FormerLurker · March 3 2013, 09:51 PM

TMP never expressed explicitly that all the uniforms were "spray 'n' wear", though. Just the robe the Ilia probe wore was even presented as such. As the other uniforms put on the appearance of pajamas, or worse, underwear in far too many instances, it's possible that Starfleet decided to move away from a style that at least looked flimsy and easily damaged, and toward one that, for all its formality, would stand up to constant wear.

Maurice · March 5 2013, 09:45 AM

"Looked flimsy" doesn't mean actually flimsy, any more than the other uniforms would "stand up to constant wear".

mos6507 · March 5 2013, 10:25 AM

Think of how often a TOS shirt got torn to shreds. They even joked about that cliche in Galaxy Quest. Trek uniforms were always flimsy and very rarely did they use those excursion jackets. The Khan style uniforms looked like they could take the most beating, and the wardrobe dept did get a lot of mileage out of them. Supposedly some of the uniforms originally created for Khan were still in use through Trek VI, although they were fraying by then.

sbk1234 · March 5 2013, 03:24 PM

Has anybody made the necessary comment that had they used the TOS uniforms, the movie would have been enhanced by the audience being able to enjoy viewing the shapely legs of the female Enterprise crew.

Psion · March 5 2013, 04:35 PM

mos6507 wrote:

Think of how often a TOS shirt got torn to shreds. They even joked about that cliche in Galaxy Quest. Trek uniforms were always flimsy and very rarely did they use those excursion jackets. The Khan style uniforms looked like they could take the most beating, and the wardrobe dept did get a lot of mileage out of them. Supposedly some of the uniforms originally created for Khan were still in use through Trek VI, although they were fraying by then.

TOS uniforms could have been made out of Kevlar-reinforced denim and Kirk's shirt still would have gotten torn regularly. It was a common trope in 1960s TV action series for the leading man to get stripped of his shirt by his heroics.

I concede that the TWOK uniforms looked heavier and possibly more durable, but they also looked terribly overwrought. If those jackets had been dress jackets for a standard duty uniform underneath, I think the look would have been more compatible with previous efforts to represent quasi-military uniforms in the Trek universe. Imagine if, after Kirk's inspection of the Enterprise, the crew ditched the jackets to reveal something more familiar and less formal underneath.

CaptainMurdock · March 5 2013, 10:48 PM

Psion wrote:

mos6507 wrote:

Think of how often a TOS shirt got torn to shreds. They even joked about that cliche in Galaxy Quest. Trek uniforms were always flimsy and very rarely did they use those excursion jackets. The Khan style uniforms looked like they could take the most beating, and the wardrobe dept did get a lot of mileage out of them. Supposedly some of the uniforms originally created for Khan were still in use through Trek VI, although they were fraying by then.

TOS uniforms could have been made out of Kevlar-reinforced denim and Kirk's shirt still would have gotten torn regularly. It was a common trope in 1960s TV action series for the leading man to get stripped of his shirt by his heroics.

I concede that the TWOK uniforms looked heavier and possibly more durable, but they also looked terribly overwrought. If those jackets had been dress jackets for a standard duty uniform underneath, I think the look would have been more compatible with previous efforts to represent quasi-military uniforms in the Trek universe. Imagine if, after Kirk's inspection of the Enterprise, the crew ditched the jackets to reveal something more familiar and less formal underneath.

The Turtleneck shirts with the matching vest Kirk wore on the Genesis Cave would have made good daily wear.

FormerLurker · March 8 2013, 08:24 AM

This is an "If Only" speculation, but it's possible that someone somewhere along the line had that intention. I for one would have liked to see it.

CaptainMurdock · March 9 2013, 07:02 AM

FormerLurker wrote:

This is an "If Only" speculation, but it's possible that someone somewhere along the line had that intention. I for one would have liked to see it.

Not sure if your referring to my post but, in ST III when Savvik wasn't wearing her big WOK excursion Jacket, she had the turtleneck with vest outfit on under.

Gov Kodos · March 9 2013, 10:29 AM

Uniforms? That was one of the least of that movie's problems. Glacial pacing, dull characters, and a story that was nothing more than Nomad redux were some of the things needed to make that snooze fest a better film than uniforms.

FormerLurker · March 10 2013, 09:25 PM

CaptainMurdock, I was indeed referring to your post Directly Above Mine.

March 3 2013, 09:51 PM	#111
FormerLurker Captain	Re: Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? TMP never expressed explicitly that all the uniforms were "spray 'n' wear", though. Just the robe the Ilia probe wore was even presented as such. As the other uniforms put on the appearance of pajamas, or worse, underwear in far too many instances, it's possible that Starfleet decided to move away from a style that at least looked flimsy and easily damaged, and toward one that, for all its formality, would stand up to constant wear.

March 5 2013, 09:45 AM	#112
Maurice Rear Admiral Location: Maurice in San Francisco	Re: Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? "Looked flimsy" doesn't mean actually flimsy, any more than the other uniforms would "stand up to constant wear". __________________ * * * "Star Trek…at times sparkled with true ingenuity, and pure science fiction approaches, and at other times was more carnival like, and very much more the creature of television than the creature of a legitimate literary form." —Rod Serling, 1970"

March 5 2013, 10:25 AM	#113
mos6507 Commander	Re: Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? Think of how often a TOS shirt got torn to shreds. They even joked about that cliche in Galaxy Quest. Trek uniforms were always flimsy and very rarely did they use those excursion jackets. The Khan style uniforms looked like they could take the most beating, and the wardrobe dept did get a lot of mileage out of them. Supposedly some of the uniforms originally created for Khan were still in use through Trek VI, although they were fraying by then. __________________ Fem Trekz on Facebook

March 5 2013, 03:24 PM	#114
sbk1234 Rear Admiral Location: Los Angeles	Re: Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? Has anybody made the necessary comment that had they used the TOS uniforms, the movie would have been enhanced by the audience being able to enjoy viewing the shapely legs of the female Enterprise crew. __________________ In all the history of the world, a riot has NEVER broken out at a Sci-Fi convention. "It's a fucking TV show!" - Gary Lockwood

March 8 2013, 08:24 AM	#117
FormerLurker Captain	Re: Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? This is an "If Only" speculation, but it's possible that someone somewhere along the line had that intention. I for one would have liked to see it.

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March 9 2013, 10:29 AM	#119
Gov Kodos Vice Admiral Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston	Re: Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? Uniforms? That was one of the least of that movie's problems. Glacial pacing, dull characters, and a story that was nothing more than Nomad redux were some of the things needed to make that snooze fest a better film than uniforms. __________________ “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” Rumi

March 10 2013, 09:25 PM	#120
FormerLurker Captain	Re: Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms? CaptainMurdock, I was indeed referring to your post Directly Above Mine.