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Old February 25 2013, 12:10 AM   #46
Greg Cox
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I can't see why they can't have c or d level subplots that could give something of an 'arc'. They could be self contained in each novel so that they don't 'put off' casual readers but still fit together to give some continuity and development between books...
Possibly. It's tricky, of course, in that the future of the 23rd Century and Kirk's crew is already written in stone (in this timeline at least), as opposed to the 24th century which was left more open-ended when the shows went off the air.

We already know what's going to happen to Kirk and Spock and the Klingon Empire and whatever between now and the Next Generation, so you can't really have any sweeping changes to the core characters and situations. It's not like we can give Sulu his own ship or blow up Romulus until . . . well, you know.
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Old February 25 2013, 12:31 AM   #47
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

^Well, that was the idea behind the Original Series thing that John Ordover tried to get going some years back, wasn't it? To do a "Lower Decks" kind of thing focusing on developing story arcs for the supporting characters, interwoven among retellings of the TOS episodes. Except the first trilogy in that, The Janus Gate, didn't really fit that description and didn't really tie together with the second trilogy, Errand of Vengeance. So the plan was aborted before it really got anywhere.
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Old February 25 2013, 12:59 AM   #48
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Yeah, it wouldn't have to be anything huge. A developing relationship between supporting characters, a bit of foreshadowing later events, reusing bit part characters from the TV, having a planned 'event' a year or two in the future connected to the subplots.

Not that straightforward I know - different authors, different stardates etc. but not impossible. Just to open up the 23rd C a little...
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Old February 25 2013, 01:38 AM   #49
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Well, we've always been able to foreshadow canonical events and sprinkle in guest-stars from the various episodes. Heck, I've brought Gary Seven back three times, and can seldom miss an opportunity to tease future events in STAR TREK history, just not as part of any sort of planned story arcs. The question is: would more central planning actually make any difference?

I'm not convinced that, say, The Rings of Time would have been more entertaining if there had been six months of buildup to it in earlier TOS books. Or if I'd thrown in a couple of extra scenes setting up Christopher's next TOS book . . . .

As far as I know, nobody has ever complained that "City on the Edge of Forever" was not part of a larger story arc.
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Old February 25 2013, 03:04 AM   #50
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

There is also the fact that we don't know the ultimate fates of McCoy, Chekov, or Uhura. And we know nothing about Sulu past the 23rd century. Those are "TOS" stories I'd like to see. Not 5 year mission stuff I know but still.
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Old February 25 2013, 04:01 AM   #51
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

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There is also the fact that we don't know the ultimate fates of McCoy, Chekov, or Uhura. And we know nothing about Sulu past the 23rd century. Those are "TOS" stories I'd like to see. Not 5 year mission stuff I know but still.

Uhura was Chief of Starfleet Intelligence in "Catalyst Of Sorrows", set in the 2350's/60's (Lost Era novel). That story also features a young Ben Sisko.

Apparently she was still active in Intelligence through 2377 ("Vulcan's Soul" trilogy, Memory Beta).

Chekov became first officer of the Excelsior and served under Sulu into the early 2300's (Forged In Fire/The Sundered)

Chekov also became Starfleet's Commander-In-Chief at some point. (The Return/Federation)

Chekov was later involved with the events of the "Vulcan's Soul" trilogy, and apparently retired around 2380.

According to Memory Beta, Sulu apparently was mentioned as being the Excelsior's Captain upto 2320 (in "Burning Dreams"), at which time it appears that he left Starfleet to run for President of the United Federation Of Planets (which he won, not just once but three times, unlike George Takei's failed bid for LA government in the 1970's).

Then Sulu doesn't make a reappearance till the DS9 novel "Armageddon Sky" (part of he Day of Honor series), but he's travelling incognito.

Last edited by tomswift2002; February 25 2013 at 04:19 AM.
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Old February 25 2013, 04:05 AM   #52
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Admittedly, I am kind of surprised we haven't gotten ulitmate fates for all the TOS characters. After all, there will never be anything on screen about them, unless Spock Prime shows up in Trek XIII and just starts telling everyone about their Prime Universe counterparts. And there there's the fact that some main characters from the 24th century shows have been killed off in the novels.
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Old February 25 2013, 04:22 AM   #53
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
ryan123450 wrote: View Post
There is also the fact that we don't know the ultimate fates of McCoy, Chekov, or Uhura. And we know nothing about Sulu past the 23rd century. Those are "TOS" stories I'd like to see. Not 5 year mission stuff I know but still.

Uhura was Chief of Starfleet Intelligence in "Catalyst Of Sorrows", set in the 2350's/60's (Lost Era novel). That story also features a young Ben Sisko.

Apparently she was still active in Intelligence through 2377 ("Vulcan's Soul" trilogy, Memory Beta).

Chekov became first officer of the Excelsior and served under Sulu into the early 2300's (Forged In Fire/The Sundered)

Chekov also became Starfleet's Commander-In-Chief at some point. (The Return/Federation)

Chekov was later involved with the events of the "Vulcan's Soul" trilogy, and apparently retired around 2380.

According to Memory Beta, Sulu apparently was mentioned as being the Excelsior's Captain upto 2320 (in "Burning Dreams"), at which time it appears that he left Starfleet to run for President of the United Federation Of Planets (which he won, not just once but three times, unlike George Takei's failed bid for LA government in the 1970's).

Then Sulu doesn't make a reappearance till the DS9 novel "Armageddon Sky" (part of he Day of Honor series), but he's travelling incognito.
Ultimate fates.
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Old February 25 2013, 04:33 AM   #54
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Really, isn't it kind of pushing it that so many live to the 2370s? Yeah, I get it, life spans are longer, but I was always under the impression that McCoy living as long as he did was a rarity. Making it to 150 would be like getting to 100 is today, it happens but is pretty damn rare. But the novels make it seem everyone from TOS is around and active at 120-130. Even "Mr Adventure!"
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Old February 25 2013, 04:41 AM   #55
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Yeah I find the Vulcan's Soul trilogy pretty unbelievable on that point.
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Old February 25 2013, 04:53 AM   #56
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Well with McCoy, remember he's had just about everything augmented!
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Old February 25 2013, 05:13 AM   #57
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I can't see why they can't have c or d level subplots that could give something of an 'arc'. They could be self contained in each novel so that they don't 'put off' casual readers but still fit together to give some continuity and development between books...
That was the original intention for TOS's so-called "lower decks" trilogies (2002-2008). It seemed like we were going to get the courtship of Angela Martine and Robert Tomlinson, but the next trilogy jumped past their interrupted wedding anyway. Then we got to follow the rise of some redshirts through the ranks, knowing that they'd probably get picked off across three, finally six, volumes.

The key to the first six books (The Janus Gate, a trilogy by LA Graf; the Errand of Vengeance trilogy by Kevin Ryan) was that they entwined the aired episodes and were intended, originally, to feature an ensemble cast of familiar faces: the "lower deck" characters, red-shirts, semi-regulars and guest star crewmembers of TOS. As I'd suspected (and later confirmed in "Voyages of the Imagination" by Jeff Ayres, 2006), these novel trilogies were inspired by a previous successful trilogy, "My Brother's Keeper" (1999) by Michael Jan Friedman.

Later, there was Ryan's sequel trilogy, Errand of Fury.
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Old February 25 2013, 05:16 AM   #58
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Well there's just nothing keeping them from continuing the idea. Why not keep going now?
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Old February 25 2013, 05:31 AM   #59
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I can't see why they can't have c or d level subplots that could give something of an 'arc'. They could be self contained in each novel so that they don't 'put off' casual readers but still fit together to give some continuity and development between books...
That was the original intention for TOS's so-called "lower decks" trilogies (2002-2008). It seemed like we were going to get the courtship of Angela Martine and Robert Tomlinson, but the next trilogy jumped past their interrupted wedding anyway. Then we got to follow the rise of some redshirts through the ranks, knowing that they'd probably get picked off across three, finally six, volumes.

The key to the first six books (The Janus Gate, a trilogy by LA Graf; the Errand of Vengeance trilogy by Kevin Ryan) was that they entwined the aired episodes and were intended, originally, to feature an ensemble cast of familiar faces: the "lower deck" characters, red-shirts, semi-regulars and guest star crewmembers of TOS. As I'd suspected (and later confirmed in "Voyages of the Imagination" by Jeff Ayres, 2006), these novel trilogies were inspired by a previous successful trilogy, "My Brother's Keeper" (1999) by Michael Jan Friedman.

Later, there was Ryan's sequel trilogy, Errand of Fury.
So they actually did follow through on all of that then? Most of the other comments I've read about those said they didn't really end up living to all of that, and turned out to be fairly normal TOS stories.
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Old February 25 2013, 05:47 AM   #60
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Re: Are the Voyager novels not as popular?

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So they actually did follow through on all of that then? Most of the other comments I've read about those said they didn't really end up living to all of that, and turned out to be fairly normal TOS stories.
The Graf books were fairly normal TOS stories, from what I remember (I can't find my copies right now). I want to say with a heavy Sulu/Chekov/Uhura/Scott focus like their other TOS books (instead of the Big Three), but still main-cast focuses.

Ryan's books definitely weren't typical TOS; however, they weren't "pure" lower decks. In addition to that perspective, there was also a plotline at Starfleet Command, as well as one aboard a Klingon ship. Not quite was was promised, but certainly much closer.
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