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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old February 23 2013, 02:28 AM   #61
Navigator_NCC2120
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Navigator_NCC2120 wrote: View Post
If the above is true then since Commodore Wesley was wearing the star-burst/flower shaped insignia then he was probably considered starbase personnel that was temporarily in command of the USS Lexington.
That's the way I always took it. Plus, the Enterprise picked up Wesley at a [originally unnamed] space station.
True, that unnamed space station (which originally looked like the K-7 Space Station model) may have been considered a starbase too.

Excerpt below is from Memory-Alpha:
(Here is the link --> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starbase )
Starbases may be a deep space structure like K-7 or DS9, an orbital facility such as Starbase 1 (aka Earth Spacedock), a planetary surface facility, or a combination of both planetary surface and orbital structure(s) such as Starbase 11.
I don't know where Memory-Alpha got that information but I remember reading it somewhere years ago.


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Old February 23 2013, 02:32 AM   #62
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

^ Right.
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Old February 23 2013, 09:11 AM   #63
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Navigator_NCC2120 wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Navigator_NCC2120 wrote: View Post
Well, maybe Commodore Decker's insignia is different because Commodores have different insignias. Commodore Wesley was commanding the USS Lexington in "The Ultimate Computer" episode and he wears the same insignia as Commodores Mendez and Stone wear on Starbase 11 and Commodore Stocker wears enroute to Starbase 10.


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Possibly. Although we are still left with trying to figure out why Areel Shaw, the court baliff, and Miss Piper all wear the insignia, too.
Greg,

Good point. If the producers wanted all starship personnel to wear the arrowhead shaped insignia then it is possible they wanted all starbase personnel to wear the star-burst/flower shaped insignia. If that is the case then Commodore Decker was neither starship personnel nor starbase personnel. Which raises the question, what is Commodore Decker's insignia suppose to signify?

If the above is true then since Commodore Wesley was wearing the star-burst/flower shaped insignia then he was probably considered starbase personnel that was temporarily in command of the USS Lexington.


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I'm pretty sure the patches shown all relate to the type of unit, ship or base the individual was assigned to, and rank plays no role. I have no idea why Commodore Wesley wears a Starfleet patch... all I can figure is that it was somehow intended to indicate he wasn't the Lexington's permanent captain.

I originally figured GR directed the creation of unique patches for the Constellation and Exeter; after all, he once told the production team that each area (set) had to have its own unique sound. The Justman memo of 12/18/67 blows that theory out of the water though.... BTW, how positive are we that this memo is authentic?

That said, the only other explaination I can imagine is that Bill Theiss somehow came down with the idea that each starship had its own insignia--remember, there were only 12 of them, so I suppose you could say each was "special," just like we consider aircraft carriers so today--and when appearently nobody corrected him during the filming of TDM, he figured his reasonning was sound when he designed another unique patch for the Exeter for Omega Glory.
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Old February 23 2013, 09:48 AM   #64
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

It would be (a tiny bit) interesting to find out if Justman wrote *any* dailies-related memos during filming for TDM. Was he around? Gone? Sick? Vacationing? If there's nothing at all from him, that might explain why he missed a Decker's-insignia mistake.
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Old February 24 2013, 02:09 AM   #65
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure the patches shown all relate to the type of unit, ship or base the individual was assigned to, and rank plays no role. I have no idea why Commodore Wesley wears a Starfleet patch... all I can figure is that it was somehow intended to indicate he wasn't the Lexington's permanent captain.
I am unable to follow any of these theories that Commodore Wesley was temporarily in command of USS Lexington for an excercise (and at the expense of its John Doe captain).
  • As we saw in "The Doomsday Machine" it's not unusual for a Commodore to have a starship command
  • Wesley addresses Kirk on a first name basis (and vice versa). It's an expression of the familiarity among the elite starship captains, in contrast the tone between Kirk and other Commodores (bureaucrats) is strictly formal.
  • Kirk and Spock make several comments about Wesley that suggest these references are made to Wesley as a starship commander: "Commodore Wesley is a dedicated commander. I should regret serving aboard the instrument of his death." (Spock) - "Any other commander would have simply followed orders and destroyed us, but I knew Bob Wesley." (Kirk)
Every seven years in the TOS and movie era (maybe a Vulcan touch) Starfleet upgrades uniforms, hardware and the Starfleet insignia changes (possibly to honor the accomplishments of Starfleet's best starship/s).

Pike's accomplishments may have lead to the adoption of the Enterprise's delta insignia for Starfleet which we still see in "Court-Martial" at a time of transfer (Lexington's flower is in the progress of replacing all delta insignias except for the individual insignias of starships like the Enterprise, Constellation and Exeter).

And another hint is the unique size of Wesley's command chair (in contrast to those aboard Enterprise, Exeter and Defiant). That tells me: Starfleet's flagship (and Commodore Wesley is the kind of guy I'd be expecting to command the Federation's flagship).

Bob
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Old February 24 2013, 07:40 PM   #66
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
And another hint is the unique size of Wesley's command chair (in contrast to those aboard Enterprise, Exeter and Defiant). That tells me: Starfleet's flagship


I think a more reasonable explanation is that Wesley preferred an extension on his chair for extra support.

KIRK: The Captain's chair on the Enterprise is somewhat uncomfortable, can I get an extension added?

STARFLEET COMMAND: Captain, you know that only the FLAGSHIP of the fleet is entitled to that chair extension, it's not something to be handed out on a whim. YOU HAVE TO EARN IT!!
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Old February 24 2013, 08:59 PM   #67
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
I originally figured GR directed the creation of unique patches for the Constellation and Exeter; after all, he once told the production team that each area (set) had to have its own unique sound. The Justman memo of 12/18/67 blows that theory out of the water though.... BTW, how positive are we that this memo is authentic?
I found the memo in the Roddenberry papers for the original series which were donated to UCLA and publicly accessible there. I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. Its condition matched the other documents in the collection and I doubt someone would have the motivation to fabricate a memo of this sort and include it with the collection -- and, if they could, I doubt they could sneak it in given reading room security.
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Old February 24 2013, 09:02 PM   #68
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
It would be (a tiny bit) interesting to find out if Justman wrote *any* dailies-related memos during filming for TDM. Was he around? Gone? Sick? Vacationing? If there's nothing at all from him, that might explain why he missed a Decker's-insignia mistake.
I just moved to Montana, so someone else would have to check. There ARE Justman authored memos about the episode -- but I do not recall if there are any related to production or post-production.
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Old February 24 2013, 09:42 PM   #69
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

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I just moved to Montana, so someone else would have to check. There ARE Justman authored memos about the episode -- but I do not recall if there are any related to production or post-production.
I'd love to see anything regarding TDM. It's the first episode of ST I ever saw, and it made me a Trekker for life. It's not only my fav episode of TOS, but of all ST series/movies....

I wonder if the first episode I ever saw had been "And The Children Shall Lead (my all time lease fav)," would I ever have watched another....
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Old February 24 2013, 09:49 PM   #70
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Harvey wrote: View Post
I just moved to Montana, so someone else would have to check. There ARE Justman authored memos about the episode -- but I do not recall if there are any related to production or post-production.
If Justman reviewed dailies for TDM, how could he have possibly missed Decker's insignia when he objected to Tracey? Certainly he must have known Decker was another starship captain...
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Old February 24 2013, 10:04 PM   #71
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
I just moved to Montana, so someone else would have to check. There ARE Justman authored memos about the episode -- but I do not recall if there are any related to production or post-production.
If Justman reviewed dailies for TDM, how could he have possibly missed Decker's insignia when he objected to Tracey? Certainly he must have known Decker was another starship captain...
Justman might have missed the dailies that week. Also, Justman might have known that Decker was actually a starship Commodore, not a starship Captain, and therefor entitled to/obligated to wear a different patch.

Why do you suppose Justman didn't object back during TDM?
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Old February 24 2013, 10:29 PM   #72
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
I just moved to Montana, so someone else would have to check. There ARE Justman authored memos about the episode -- but I do not recall if there are any related to production or post-production.
If Justman reviewed dailies for TDM, how could he have possibly missed Decker's insignia when he objected to Tracey? Certainly he must have known Decker was another starship captain...
Justman might have missed the dailies that week. Also, Justman might have known that Decker was actually a starship Commodore, not a starship Captain, and therefor entitled to/obligated to wear a different patch.

Why do you suppose Justman didn't object back during TDM?

First, to quote the Justman memo, "I have checked the occurences out with Mr. Roddenberry, who has reassured me that all Starship personnel wear the Starship emblem that we have established for our Enterprise Crew Members to wear." Seems to me that Decker, as the commander of a starship, qualifies as "all starship personnel" regardless of his being a commodore.

Secondly, I suppose it's possible that Justman missed dailies for TDM, but is it logical to assume he missed most or all of them? William Windom appears in all but the first and last acts in the episode, and is prominently featured, so how likely is it that Justman missed reviewing all of the other acts he appeared in?

Also, from a previous post, I noted that Justman missed the production of the first couple of episodes of season two due to a hip infection, but Justman himself indicated in his and Solow's book that he was back on the job well before TDM was shot in the latter half of June '67.

That just makes Justman's strong reaction to seeing Tracey's Exeter patch--apparently on the FIRST day of shooting on "The Omega Glory"--even more curious. Seeing it obviously moved him to write a memo (I'm pretty sure he was kinda busy otherwise) so this matter was of obvious importance to him. How then can anyone, not just me, explain why he had a pronounced reaction to seeing a different patch on one starship commander but not another???

Harvey, do any of the other memos/papers etc. shed any light on this?
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Old February 24 2013, 10:36 PM   #73
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Nothing I can recall illuminates the issue further. But there are a lot of documents in the collection, and I have read only a fraction of them. It is worth pointing out that Justman wrote or dictated many, many memos -- so the fact that he did so here doesn't suggest any departure from his normal job duties.
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Old February 24 2013, 11:25 PM   #74
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Harvey wrote: View Post
Nothing I can recall illuminates the issue further. But there are a lot of documents in the collection, and I have read only a fraction of them. It is worth pointing out that Justman wrote or dictated many, many memos -- so the fact that he did so here doesn't suggest any departure from his normal job duties.
My speculation (and that's all it is, really), is that some review of the dailies had been handled by Gene Coon. (Perhaps Gene Coon is the one who reviewed TDM footage.) After Coon left in September, 1967, more (all?) episodes were reviewed by Justman. There's no memo from Justman about Decker's patch in TDM because Gene Coon was the one who reviewed *those* dailies.
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Old February 25 2013, 12:30 PM   #75
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
And another hint is the unique size of Wesley's command chair (in contrast to those aboard Enterprise, Exeter and Defiant). That tells me: Starfleet's flagship


I think a more reasonable explanation is that Wesley preferred an extension on his chair for extra support.
Since you said yourself "It's just a TV show" and probably know they were under a tight budget, maybe you can explain better off-universe why they went through the extra hazzle of only extending Wesley's command chair and not those of Enterprise, Exeter or Defiant (the only other example with an extended command chair was the ISS Enterprise from "Mirror, Mirror", possibly Starfleet's flagship in the mirror universe).

Apparently, the producers wanted to suggest something about Wesley and the Lexington being different and I'd dare to say that a bigger chair suggests bigger authority.

When you are done laughing, maybe we can hear your theory?

Bob
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