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Old February 24 2013, 09:40 AM   #16
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

We don't know for sure if the natural resources of Cardassia ever were depleted. That could simply be a public excuse for a policy the Central Command would have pursued in any case.

The Dominion certainly appeared to have the technology to make Cardassia Prime productive again - assuming their plans of rebuilding their combat strength while besieged on that single planet in "What You Leave Behind" were realistic. But they appeared realistic to Sisko, Ross and Martok at least.

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Old February 24 2013, 03:14 PM   #17
Xhiandra
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

Gul Madred does it indeed point it out to be during his lifetime, but it would seem Cardassians are potentially longer-lived than Humans, which could potentially make it match with the occupation of Bajor; as evidenced by Dukat's longevity in his prime, Garak being both old enough to be Dukat's rival but Zyal's lover (without the age difference raising eyebrows) and so forth.
It's never stated on-screen (IIRC), but I think we do have to assume Cardassians to have a long lifespan.

That, or the state of Cardassian leadership has merely been retconned for DS9.
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Old February 24 2013, 03:44 PM   #18
The Wormhole
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

Xhiandra wrote: View Post
Garak being both old enough to be Dukat's rival but Zyal's lover (without the age difference raising eyebrows) and so forth.
It's possible Cardassians just don't have taboos regarding age difference in relationships, provided both are whatever age is considered legal adult in Cardassian society. Even among humans of today it's common to find relationships where there's 10-20 years between partners.

It's never stated on-screen (IIRC), but I think we do have to assume Cardassians to have a long lifespan.
I've always assumed that to be the case.

That, or the state of Cardassian leadership has merely been retconned for DS9.
Another distinct possibility.
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Old February 24 2013, 06:27 PM   #19
The Overlord
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Gul Madred more or less stated that the Military came to power during his lifetime. Assuming he was the same age as his actor, David Warner, who was about 50 at the time, this would suggest that it happened about 40 years in the past.
According to Memory Alpha, the Occupation of Bajor by Cardassia ran from 2319 to 2369. That is 50 years. Cardassia maintained a military presence 10 years prior to this. Cardassia was militaristic and hostile, annexing star systems by force years before establishing a military presence on Bajor.
Simply having a military presence on another world doesn't mean you're a Military Dictatorship. The time the annexation formally happened was probably around the same time the Military took over Cardassia, given how close Bajor and Cardassia are.

So the military takeover was 50 years ago, and probably there was resistance to this on Cardassia which explain Madred's impoverishment as a youth until when he joined the Military (around when they truly consolidated their power over Cardassia and stamped out most resistance).
Picard described the Cardassians as peaceful and spiritual before the military took over, so it seems unlikely that the Cardassians would have been involved in the annexation of Bajor before Cardassia became a military dictatorship.

After all the Cardassians are not an evil race, they are simply people controlled by an evil regime that came about due to desperate circumstances. The Wiemar Republic did not have an aggressive foreign policy, that only changed when the Nazis gained control over Germany.
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Old February 24 2013, 06:58 PM   #20
Ketrick
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post

According to Memory Alpha, the Occupation of Bajor by Cardassia ran from 2319 to 2369. That is 50 years. Cardassia maintained a military presence 10 years prior to this. Cardassia was militaristic and hostile, annexing star systems by force years before establishing a military presence on Bajor.
Simply having a military presence on another world doesn't mean you're a Military Dictatorship. The time the annexation formally happened was probably around the same time the Military took over Cardassia, given how close Bajor and Cardassia are.

So the military takeover was 50 years ago, and probably there was resistance to this on Cardassia which explain Madred's impoverishment as a youth until when he joined the Military (around when they truly consolidated their power over Cardassia and stamped out most resistance).
Picard described the Cardassians as peaceful and spiritual before the military took over, so it seems unlikely that the Cardassians would have been involved in the annexation of Bajor before Cardassia became a military dictatorship.

After all the Cardassians are not an evil race, they are simply people controlled by an evil regime that came about due to desperate circumstances. The Weimar Republic did not have an aggressive foreign policy, that only changed when the Nazis gained control over Germany.
Considering that the military had been independent for around 400 years, it's possible that there was no single point when the military took over, but rather it was a process. If this is so, there probably would be a lot of debate among historians as to when the military dictatorship actually began, if the Trek universe actually existed.
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Old February 24 2013, 09:25 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

A few remarks:

It's actually "over five centuries" prior to DS9, not 400, that the triumvirate of CC, OO and DC was founded. Or at least the episode "Defiant" has Dukat saying that this system has worked more or less smoothly for that length of time; perhaps it is actually much older, but suffered its last major breakdown around the time of Bismarck.

And if "when the military dictatorship actually began" might be debatable in the Trek universe, the very idea of whether there existed a military dictatorship on Cardassia at all is less than clear as well. Sure, Central Command had the ability to conduct military operations pretty much as it pleased. But the Detapa Council still apparently had plenty of power, and episodes like "Cardassians" indicate that Central Command had to yield to it and withdraw from Bajor after suffering too many humiliating defeats. (Of course, "Cardassians" did not yet use that exact terminology, but it was still a case of the civilians telling the military to get out of Bajor.)

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Old February 25 2013, 01:10 AM   #22
The Overlord
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

Timo wrote: View Post
A few remarks:

It's actually "over five centuries" prior to DS9, not 400, that the triumvirate of CC, OO and DC was founded. Or at least the episode "Defiant" has Dukat saying that this system has worked more or less smoothly for that length of time; perhaps it is actually much older, but suffered its last major breakdown around the time of Bismarck.

And if "when the military dictatorship actually began" might be debatable in the Trek universe, the very idea of whether there existed a military dictatorship on Cardassia at all is less than clear as well. Sure, Central Command had the ability to conduct military operations pretty much as it pleased. But the Detapa Council still apparently had plenty of power, and episodes like "Cardassians" indicate that Central Command had to yield to it and withdraw from Bajor after suffering too many humiliating defeats. (Of course, "Cardassians" did not yet use that exact terminology, but it was still a case of the civilians telling the military to get out of Bajor.)

Timo Saloniemi
Except there is evidence that Cardassia is a military dictatorship, Picard's line about the military taking power wouldn't make much sense if Cardassia is not a military dictatorship. Also what was the point of the Cardassian Underground Movement, if Cardassia wasn't a military dictatorship, they even said their purpose was to cause a revolution that would take power away from the military. Heck, in the beginning of season of 4 of DS9, there was a revolution that overthrew the Central Command and gave power to the civilian government, clearly Cardassia would need would need to be a military dictatorship to make sense.

Really what evidence is there that Cardassia isn't a military dictatorship? It was Gul Dukat who said that all 3 bodies function interdependently from one another and he is not the most trust worthy source. And in the episode "The Cardassians" it was said that no civilian official can over rule a decision made by a military official, that military officials ultimately have final say on all major policy decisions.

It seems more likely that the occupation of Bajor was becoming less popular on Cardassia and even some military officials thought it should end, even a dictatorship has to be mindful of public opinion or else they can have a revolution on their hands.
Besides many dictatorships try to appear legitimate by having the trappings of democracy, how many dictatorships have had the title "Democratic Republic" their name or have show elections to justify their rule. It seems likely the the Detapa Council was a glorified debating council, allowed to exist to give the regime some legitimacy, but having no real power.
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Old February 25 2013, 01:25 AM   #23
T'Girl
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
It seems likely the the Detapa Council was a glorified debating council, allowed to exist to give the regime some legitimacy, but having no real power.
Or possibly, the Detapa Council provided the military with the necessary civil bureaucracy for the day to day running of the government, but with the military making the upper level executive decisions.

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Old February 25 2013, 10:37 AM   #24
Timo
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Re: When did Cardassia become a military dictatorship?

Picard's line about the military taking power wouldn't make much sense if Cardassia is not a military dictatorship.
How much can we really read into Picard's opinions? It would be valid to say that the military has taken power in the United States, at any juncture of recent history where the nation has gone to war mainly because the military or its background powers wanted to, and indeed many educated and influential people have expressed that very opinion; yet not a single time has the nation gone to war against its democratic principles of letting the elected government have the final say.

Picard may simply not understand the finer nuances of the Cardassian triumvirate government very well.

Heck, in the beginning of season of 4 of DS9, there was a revolution that overthrew the Central Command and gave power to the civilian government
Which is just a step towards dictatorship and away from a balance of power, in objective terms: it narrows the power base of the government by illegal means.

We have no idea whether the Detapa Council is in any way less dictatorial than the Central Command. We have never heard of anything remotely like an election, or of any sort of a representation system, as regards the Detapa Council.

Sure, Cardassia may be a dictatorship. But just because said dictatorship happens to have a military doesn't make it a military dictatorship; for all we know, it's a bureaucratic dictatorship, ruled with an iron stamp, or a dictatorship of religious fanatics much like Spain under Philip II, just with a fairly straightforward loyalty religion devoid of superfluous supernaturalism.

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