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Old February 22 2013, 10:10 PM   #151
T'Girl
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Re: Section 31...

stj wrote: View Post
Since the Dominion could only attack through the wormhole, it was merely necessary for the Federation to deny them control of the wormhole and any Dominion invasion force would be doomed to failure.
One good reason for the Federation to have mined the mouth of the wormhole far sooner than they did. Or employed some similar method to control passage through the passage.
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Old February 22 2013, 10:27 PM   #152
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Re: Section 31...

Sci wrote: View Post
It's an entire species. The idea that they only had kids the once and then they sent them all away is just obtuse. No sentient race could survive with a reproductive strategy like that.
The Founder were at one time solids, during this time period it would be easy to see them have offspring in the "normal " way, but this is not a given.

Once they change from solid to goo, why would regular child production be necessary? We've seen extremely short lived races, and other that live basically forever. If the Founder don't normally age and die, then the replacement purpose for children disappears. Founders can be killed, and the hundred were once produced for a specific purpose. There might be a need for periodic replacements. But these occasions might be thousands of years apart.

Akuta: "Replacements. None are necessary."

What is relevant is that there has to be a mechanism to counter them in case they do.
Ahhh, the lovely smell of paranoia.

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Old February 23 2013, 06:15 AM   #153
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post

It seems to me you assume the Founders are exactly humanoid so that you can be offended by the attempted genocide against them.
I had no idea that I needed more reasons to be offended at attempted genocide.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
What is relevant is that there has to be a mechanism to counter them in case they do.
Ahhh, the lovely smell of paranoia.
Right, 'cos the idea of being paranoid about a genocidal organization that answers to no one and acts as its own judge, jury, and executioner is completely unreasonable.
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Old February 23 2013, 06:28 AM   #154
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Re: Section 31...

Sci wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post

It seems to me you assume the Founders are exactly humanoid so that you can be offended by the attempted genocide against them.
I had no idea that I needed more reasons to be offended at attempted genocide.
Since you refuse to accept any argument that precludes the changelings from being anything other than typical humanoids, with civilians and children among the population, I can only assume you resist changing your position on the nature of changeling society because to do so would weaken your argument against the attack on the Great Link.
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Old February 23 2013, 01:48 PM   #155
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Re: Section 31...

Sci wrote: View Post
attempted genocide
But was it?

Don't get me wrong, I believe S31 under certain circumstances would have killed the entirety of the Founder race, but I believe the same of Starfleet (certain circumstances). It wasn't so much an attempted genocide, as it was the threat of genocide.

Sci, why did Section 31 create a cure?

.
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Old February 23 2013, 05:41 PM   #156
Sci
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post

It seems to me you assume the Founders are exactly humanoid so that you can be offended by the attempted genocide against them.
I had no idea that I needed more reasons to be offended at attempted genocide.
Since you refuse to accept any argument that precludes the changelings from being anything other than typical humanoids, with civilians and children among the population,
Listen. We know that the Founders have children; we know that the Female Shapeshifter took the lead in directing Dominion policy towards the Federation (since she was the only one issuing orders to anyone), which means that some Founders exercise more influence than others; and we know that the Founders have disagreements with one-another (since it took them a full year between "The Adversary" and "Broken Link" to decide what to do about Odo).

So the idea that all Founders are equally morally culpable agents--the idea, in essence, that they're all the same and all guilty--is just speculation. Until you get actual evidence of it, that's all it is.

And I sure as hell don't think we should default to assuming that they're all the same, that they're all a homogenous Other who bear equal moral responsibility for the Dominion's crimes. That sort of thinking is not the sort of assumption a moral policy should be based upon.

I can only assume you resist changing your position on the nature of changeling society because to do so would weaken your argument against the attack on the Great Link.
Or I just interpret the available evidence differently than you and always did, even before the episodes revealing the Founder virus aired.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
attempted genocide
But was it?
Yes.

Sci, why did Section 31 create a cure?
Are you seriously arguing that an act of terrorism threatening the extinction of an entire species is any morally better?

And they probably developed a cure in case it jumped species.
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Last edited by Sci; February 23 2013 at 05:55 PM.
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Old February 23 2013, 06:29 PM   #157
Pavonis
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Re: Section 31...

Sci wrote: View Post
Listen. We know that the Founders have children; we know that the Female Shapeshifter took the lead in directing Dominion policy towards the Federation (since she was the only one issuing orders to anyone), which means that some Founders exercise more influence than others; and we know that the Founders have disagreements with one-another (since it took them a full year between "The Adversary" and "Broken Link" to decide what to do about Odo).
No, we know that the Founders HAD offspring in the past. We don't know how often they reproduce, whether it's a regular occurrence or not. We do know that the only infant changelings mentioned were specifically sent out to "explore" the galaxy. What if they only reproduce once a millennium, and Odo's cohort was the most recent reproductive cycle? Then there wouldn't be any children during the Dominion War (unless you want to argue that Odo's and Laas were minors).

As for the female Founder, she was the only one in the AQ, no? She would be exercising the full authority of the Great Link, then.

So the idea that all Founders are equally morally culpable agents--the idea, in essence, that they're all the same and all guilty--is just speculation. Until you get actual evidence of it, that's all it is.

And I sure as hell don't think we should default to assuming that they're all the same, that they're all a homogenous Other who bear equal moral responsibility for the Dominion's crimes. That sort of thinking is not the sort of assumption a moral policy should be based upon.
What I think is that you should stop insisting you know what changeling society is like, because we both watched the show, and we don't agree that the evidence points to the same conclusions. I'm willing to change my mind, because I'm more interested in questioning assumptions than in insisting that I'm right, but you seem unreasonably stubborn on insisting that changelings have kids and civilians based on no evidence whatsoever. You're just decreeing them into existence.

And they probably developed a cure in case it jumped species.
A cure gives S31 leverage.
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Old February 23 2013, 08:03 PM   #158
Sci
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Listen. We know that the Founders have children; we know that the Female Shapeshifter took the lead in directing Dominion policy towards the Federation (since she was the only one issuing orders to anyone), which means that some Founders exercise more influence than others; and we know that the Founders have disagreements with one-another (since it took them a full year between "The Adversary" and "Broken Link" to decide what to do about Odo).
No, we know that the Founders HAD offspring in the past.
We know that the Founders can reproduce and have children. The idea that they do not reproduce regularly is speculation; the idea that there are currently no Founder children is speculation.

As for the female Founder, she was the only one in the AQ, no?
She was the one taking the lead in deciding Founder policy well before the outbreak of the war. She was the one they interacted with in numerous episodes set before then.

So the idea that all Founders are equally morally culpable agents--the idea, in essence, that they're all the same and all guilty--is just speculation. Until you get actual evidence of it, that's all it is.

And I sure as hell don't think we should default to assuming that they're all the same, that they're all a homogenous Other who bear equal moral responsibility for the Dominion's crimes. That sort of thinking is not the sort of assumption a moral policy should be based upon.
What I think is that you should stop insisting you know what changeling society is like,
I'm insisting nothing other than what we know the canonical evidence indicates.

but you seem unreasonably stubborn on insisting that changelings have kids and civilians based on no evidence whatsoever.
I have already cited evidence indicating Founder children and civilians.

And they probably developed a cure in case it jumped species.
A cure gives S31 leverage.
An act of mass terrorism that risks an entire species's extermination is not a meaningful step up the moral ladder.
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Old February 24 2013, 02:54 AM   #159
Pavonis
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Re: Section 31...

Sci wrote: View Post
We know that the Founders can reproduce and have children. The idea that they do not reproduce regularly is speculation; the idea that there are currently no Founder children is speculation.
Yes, absolutely it is speculation. We know they are capable of producing offspring, but know nothing about their reproductive cycles, such as how often infants are produced, which I think is an important point. So, yes, I'm speculating that the Founders don't have any offspring among them during the Dominion War because I want to know how and why your argument would change if they don't have children. Would it be OK to attack them then? What if there are no "civilians" among the Great Link? What then? In fact, what does "civilian" mean in the context of the Great Link? How does one participate in the Great Link as a "civilian"? Please explain what you think a "civilian" is in the context of a society that isn't humanoid, and in fact is one exists primarily as a shapeless ocean of goo with an extensive telepathic link among all individuals.

She was the one taking the lead in deciding Founder policy well before the outbreak of the war. She was the one they interacted with in numerous episodes set before then.
"She" (in quotes because what does gender mean among changelings?) was at the very least the spokesperson for the policies of the Great Link. Was she their absolute leader? After she was isolated in the Alpha Quadrant, she became the leading authority figure of the Dominion, but was she always the leader of the Great Link? Does the Great Link have a leader normally?

An act of mass terrorism that risks an entire species's extermination is not a meaningful step up the moral ladder.
No, it's not a step up the "moral ladder", whatever that means to you. But holding a cure does provide leverage. I'm not condoning it, just making an observation. A mugger holding a gun to force you to give up your wallet isn't holding the moral high ground, but are you going to berate them about that when they're the one with the leverage?
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Old February 24 2013, 07:35 AM   #160
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Section 31...

Sci wrote: View Post
We know that the Founders can reproduce and have children.
Sci - there is no canon evidence whatsoever that the founders can and do reproduce.
'We know'? Really?
O - and as per trek lit that you're in love with, the founders most definitely cannot reproduce.

And there is ample proof that the great link is, effectively, one being/one mind.

Old news - as you've repeatedly proved, logic fallacies and "changing" facts are your main tool on this forum.
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Old February 24 2013, 09:07 AM   #161
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Re: Section 31...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sci - there is no canon evidence whatsoever that the founders can and do reproduce.
I could swear one of the shows said Odo is only supposed to be a couple hundred years old and left in the Denorius belt as an infant and the Dominion is thousands of years old. Unless the Founders have an extra Orb of Time, a time-travelling Bird-of-Prey, or something, I'm pretty sure it means they have children.
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Old February 24 2013, 03:30 PM   #162
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Re: Section 31...

Not necessarily.
An alternative explanation (among several) is given in trek lit: as per trek lit, the founders are sterile; and Odo IS as old as any founder - he was just kept as a blank slate within the great link, until he was sent away.
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Old February 24 2013, 07:02 PM   #163
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Re: Section 31...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Not necessarily.
An alternative explanation (among several) is given in trek lit: as per trek lit, the founders are sterile; and Odo IS as old as any founder - he was just kept as a blank slate within the great link, until he was sent away.
And they also say Andorians must being going extinct becuase we didn't see them on two starships and a space station and starship in the whole of federation space that mostly focuses on the senior staff, a few quest characters, and the occasion small groups from a handful of starbases and starships aka a drop in the bucket that is the federation.
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Old February 24 2013, 07:11 PM   #164
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Re: Section 31...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
EnterpriseClass wrote: View Post
They believe, in the interest of their security, that they are justified in doing whatever it takes to safeguard themselves.
Correction, the Federation's security, and safeguard the Federation
I'm sorry but i'm supposed to believe that a secret group with absolute power to do whatever they want to anyone is benevolent and selfless? This has never happened in the whole history of the world. The only thing that has ever come from people with absolute power is some of the most horrible and unspeakable crimes imaginable.

It does not matter who they have to kill or how many races they have to genocide.
And yet in spite of your contention, S31 never "genocided" the Romulans or the Klingons, the Klingons especially were a long time treat and opponent of the Federation. The 22nd century verison of S31 took steps to stabilize the Klingon Empire
.

When the Federation was fighting a protracted boarder war with the Cardassians, S31 never "genocided" the Cardassians. There is no canon evidence that S31 goes around haphazardly killing people
There was never a need to genocide the Cardassians. They were a second rate power that the Federation could have crushed if they wanted too. But the Federation isn't warlike and aggressive so they use the smallest amount of force that is needed.

As for the Klingons and Romulus, no one said that section 31 goes around genociding any race that might be a threat. But when they think the situations calls for it they have no problem doing it.

Just like how the founders don't go around genociding every race they think is threat, but they don't have a problem doing it when they think it is needed.

This is what makes them the same thing. Two secrets groups that think they are justified in doing anything to safeguard themselves.
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Old February 24 2013, 07:36 PM   #165
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Re: Section 31...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
EnterpriseClass wrote: View Post
All you section 31 supporters do realize that the justification you are using to support them is the same one the changelings used to found the dominion?

They believe, in the interest of their security, that they are justified in doing whatever it takes to safeguard themselves. It does not matter who they have to kill or how many races they have to genocide. As long as the end result is their safety and security then it is the right thing to do.

Sound familiar?
What you presented is a straw-man.
Sci wrote pretty much the same thing in his previous post.

Why is it a straw-man?
Because the federation, other races/other countries do NOT act with blatant aggressivity to reduce the founders/your country to slavery. And it is quite unlikely that they will act so.
Meaning, genocide-level response is not necessary in order to guarantee your freedoms/the lives of billions of your citizens. Consequently, such a response is utterly unjustified; as such, utterly immoral.

In the case of DS9 (the situation you distorted with your straw-man comparison):
The dominion/founders most definitely acted blatantly aggressively to reduce the gamma and alpha quadrants to slavery - and genocide was one of their standard methods of operation in achieving this goal.
Further, 10000 years of dominion history showed that the chance of the founders stopping from this endeavor is practically zero - as long as they exist.
Meaning, in order to stop the founders - the great link, the de jure/de facto head of the dominion meat grinding machine - killing most of the shapeshifting race is necessary; there is no other option for stopping them with a significant chance of succeeding.
There is the small chance that the founders will change their ways by some other means, but, as said, winning the lottery is more probable; and if you are idiotic enough to base your acts on faith in such improbabilities, your civilization and all it achieved will disappear, and very soon - the universe is not forgiving to suicidal fools.
Strawman? Really?

You can't seem to see anything beyond your own point of view, but I expect nothing less from someone who uses the "straw man" argument.

From the founders point of view, they are the "good guys" who are justified it doing anything needed to survive. The founders and section 31 are two sides of the same coin. There is no difference or moral superiority between the two. They are both evil. Your attempt at trying to justify one over the other is both sad and scary. As Major Kira said, paraphrasing, "what is really scary is that people can find a way to justify anything no matter how evil."
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