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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 16 2013, 12:37 PM   #16
inflatabledalek
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

I always took it that there were actually two different thing going on in the holodeck: the murder was the actual crime Data was supposed to solve (which he does) whilst Moriarty's machinations were separate, once he's self aware the computer has nothing to do with his actions so It's still doing It's own thing.

Otherwise the inclusion of the murder is totally random and doesn't have anything to do with anything.
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Old February 16 2013, 08:07 PM   #17
Captrek
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

inflatabledalek wrote: View Post
the murder was the actual crime Data was supposed to solve (which he does)
No. The murder was an independent program. The opponent with the ability to defeat Data was Moriarty, not the woman who killed her husband. Data and Geordi were puzzled that the holodeck was running a program that they didn't tell the computer to run. Data didn't even want to waste time on it; he stuck around and solved the murder only to humor Geordi.

Otherwise the inclusion of the murder is totally random and doesn't have anything to do with anything.
The point is that Data, Geordi, and the Enterprise crew are not the only ones who can access the computer and run programs. The murder mystery program was initiated by Moriarty, who was probably experimenting to see what he could do with the computer.
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Old February 16 2013, 11:40 PM   #18
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

Data conceding defeat was a strategy to try to end the program by ending the story. The murder in the street was not Data's main challenge. It was a distraction programmed by Moriarty so he could nab Pulaski.

For the deceitful ending to work they would have had to spell it out that Moriarty intended to play out his character in real life. The way they played it, it seemed like Moriarty was not ruled by his character's criminal programming, so deceiving him would come off more as depriving a sentient being of his right to freedom.

Also I'm really glad they didn't set the precedent that holographic matter could exist for real. That would have been a plot killer in later episodes.
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Old February 16 2013, 11:54 PM   #19
Captrek
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
For the deceitful ending to work they would have had to spell it out that Moriarty intended to play out his character in real life. The way they played it, it seemed like Moriarty was not ruled by his character's criminal programming, so deceiving him would come off more as depriving a sentient being of his right to freedom.
His right to freedom? More like his right to life, since his program wasn’t going to be kept running. Even if one expects him to remain a villain after leaving the holodeck, that doesn’t give Picard the right to kill him, does it?
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Old February 17 2013, 02:48 AM   #20
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

No, but if it were clear Moriarty were going to go out and kill people, and they let him go, it would make them responsible for everything he did.

It'd be like that episode of Stargate where they let Nirti go.
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Old February 17 2013, 03:06 AM   #21
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
No, but if it were clear Moriarty were going to go out and kill people, and they let him go, it would make them responsible for everything he did.

It'd be like that episode of Stargate where they let Nirti go.
They wouldn’t necessarily have to “let him go.” If he can leave the holodeck, he can be put in the brig. Not indefinitely, of course, since I don’t think he has committed any crimes that would incur a life sentence in the 24th century UFP, but he could be held for a while, on charges of kidnapping and interfering with ship operations. Presumably, by the time the UFP rehabilitation center is through with him, he will no longer act as a villain, because in Roddenberry’s vision those rehab centers are presumed to work.

I categorically reject the contention that encountering a potential killer and not killing him makes one responsible for everything he does thereafter.
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Old February 17 2013, 03:11 AM   #22
Dale Sams
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

My nitpick is the usual, 'holy crap that stupid holodeck is dangerous'.
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Old February 20 2013, 03:46 AM   #23
Anji
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

Loved the grouping of LaForge, Data and Pulaski. Not a triology you'd see that often. Pacing was a bit slow but overall I had fun with it. Loved Worf's reaction to Picard punching open the top hat. Stewart looked smoking hot in the Frenchman's outfit.
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Old February 20 2013, 12:58 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

The way one treats criminals should be dependent on a number of parameters. Today, justice is considered justice only if the punishment or deterrent is tailored to fit the crime. To a minor degree, it must also be tailored to fit the criminal, as a difference is often made between adult, underage, and mentally deficient perpetrators. Sometimes things like age, physical health or gender also make a difference.

Yet in the Star Trek context, the latter set of parameters would be much more prominent. Imprisonment of a given length means vastly different things to entities with different lifespans or paces of life. Taking of life gets complicated when the criminal has several. Etc.

Holographic criminals might be a new thing as of 2364 - but there might already be some precedent of criminal software by then. Imprisonment would be a rather meaningless punishment or deterrent; death, likewise. Cyber-lobotomy might work reasonably well, and be comparable to the gold standard of "Dagger of the Mind", that of curing the mental illness that drove the perp to the crime. Still, different software criminals would pose different challenges of punishment or deterrent, and it's not objectionable to see Picard stymied by the specific challenge posed by Moriarty...

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Old February 21 2013, 02:46 AM   #25
Dream
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
My nitpick is the usual, 'holy crap that stupid holodeck is dangerous'.
But this was only the second 'the holodeck gets dangerous' episode. It hasn't become a cliche yet!
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Old February 21 2013, 05:52 AM   #26
Captrek
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

Dream wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
My nitpick is the usual, 'holy crap that stupid holodeck is dangerous'.
But this was only the second 'the holodeck gets dangerous' episode. It hasn't become a cliche yet!
Third. The holodeck produced the pathogen that threatened the ship in Angel One.
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Old February 21 2013, 01:43 PM   #27
Timo
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Re: Episode of the week: 2x03 "Elementary, Dear Data

Naah. It just spread from person to person there because the holodeck was a popular meeting place. Nothing suggests that the pathogen originated from anywhere specific, but Wesley seems to be the first to have a blocked nose, right after that holodeck ski lesson. Perhaps he picked it up from a recent planetside visit?

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