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Old February 21 2013, 10:59 AM   #31
F. King Daniel
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Re: Early starfleet.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
We know they had the giant Einstein-class ships, like the USS Kelvin, in the 2230's.
Einstein class?
From the book Federation: The First 150 Years.
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Actually its not. We saw A Constitution next to an NX in In A Mirror Darkly, the Constitution was considerably bigger.
I believe the saucer is the same size as the Constitution class, not the entire ship.
But since the NX saucer incorporates all the enginnering stuff that the Connie puts in the secondary hull, there would be much less space for people and much more machinery, IMO.
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Old February 21 2013, 11:12 AM   #32
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Re: Early starfleet.

No need for the saucer to accommodate "all" of the stuff, as the ship also has the sizeable engine booms for the purpose.

Most of Kirk's ship is empty space, literally - space outside the hull accounts for most of the volume within the box that the greater length and height indicate. Kirk's ship also has bigger engines, main culprits for the greater length, but people aren't berthed there in the general case. In terms of supposedly habitable volume, the difference is minimal... Certainly much smaller than the difference between 430 crew and 80 crew.

From the book Federation: The First 150 Years.
I'm sort of disappointed they went with the Famous Scientists theme - a theme of Rivers of Scotland would have been more interesting.

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Old February 21 2013, 11:31 AM   #33
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Re: Early starfleet.

Einstein "Exceeding the speed of light is impossible."

Cochrane "My ass it is."

The name of the class of that ship was chosen (in the fictional world?) by a sarcastic asshole (that word again!) with a sick smug sense of humour.

It would be like calling a new modern US Aircraft Carrier the "USS Joey Stalin".
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Old February 21 2013, 12:59 PM   #34
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Re: Early starfleet.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The only reason the NX-01 was decommissioned was so that it wouldn't have been the first Federation Starfleet vessel called Enterprise. That doesn't mean the NX class itself was a failure.
According to Trek Lit (and it makes sense) The NX was decomissioned because of the Earth-Romulan war where the cost of the NX class was too high to justify production when they could make several cheaper, just as well armed ships for the same price
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Old February 21 2013, 01:07 PM   #35
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Re: Early starfleet.

Then again, with the war over, should it not have been cheaper to just scrap a hundred of those cheaper ships and send out a single Enterprise with the liberated resources? Supposedly, the Daedalus class was crap in deep space, unable to do even a fraction of the job of an Enterprise.

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Old February 21 2013, 01:15 PM   #36
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Re: Early starfleet.

The final episode said that humans were building warp 7 ships, which given their new alliance with the Vulcans and all the rest who had to hand over their future tech to dim little backward humanity really makes you think that the Humans were just building Vulcan ships now. This "intermingling" totally and completely invalidates the opening credits... 2161 was the end of humanity standing on the merits of it's own history driving to the future. Now every human being going to school gets the benefit of a million years (Yes a million years) of Vulcan Astrohistory and other hard science.

Enterprise wasn't being decomissioned completely, it was joining the "mothball fleet".

The mothball fleet was one of two things.

A. A graveyard.

B. A fleet of ships with such awkardly slow engines that it's silly to send them out of Earth's solar system. Slow stody warp vessels are still great impulse powered gunships.
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Old February 21 2013, 01:28 PM   #37
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Re: Early starfleet.

Well, humans were dreaming of building warp 7 ships as of "TATV". One wonders if anything ever came out of it.

Is Kirk's ship a warp 7 vessel, say? Scotty gets a cardiac arrest every time Kirk orders a speed higher than warp 6... OTOH, it seems that any ship can reach arbitrarily high speeds with sufficiently many people sitting on the safety valve - this merely shortens the expected lifetime of the ship and the crew to varying degrees.

Archer's ship for some reason never had to suffer the indignity of traveling way faster than the recommended maximum speed. I wonder why? Something inherent in the engines? Or just a general strategy of avoiding tugging Superman's cape?

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Old February 21 2013, 02:18 PM   #38
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Re: Early starfleet.

You don't believe in the warp recalibration?

How Kirk could fly at warp 14 (Warp 36 if you count TAS), but warp ten is infinite speed to Picard, however futureboy Riker is zooming forward at Warp 13 in All Good Things.

It's certainly a possibility that the Warp Scale could have been recalibrated between Archers time and Kirks as well?

Leagues, Knots, mph, kph, mach numbers, fractions of C... Multiples of the Speed of light?

It happens all the time.

um.

How do you know when you're dealing with a leap light year and not an ordinairy light year?
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Old February 21 2013, 07:04 PM   #39
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Re: Early starfleet.

Infern0 wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
The only reason the NX-01 was decommissioned was so that it wouldn't have been the first Federation Starfleet vessel called Enterprise. That doesn't mean the NX class itself was a failure.
According to Trek Lit (and it makes sense) The NX was decomissioned because of the Earth-Romulan war where the cost of the NX class was too high to justify production when they could make several cheaper, just as well armed ships for the same price
Actually if we want to go strictly by canon sources, it would seem that the NX class was superceded by the "warp 7 beauties" Reed mentions in TATV. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the NX class ceased production or that ships of that class weren't still operational after 2161.

EDIT- looks like Guy Gardener and Timo beat me to the punch
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Old February 21 2013, 07:09 PM   #40
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Re: Early starfleet.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
...

Enterprise wasn't being decomissioned completely, it was joining the "mothball fleet"....
It's possible that, for historical significance, it was retired so as to become the museum it clearly is in TATV (one of the few bits of TATV that actually makes any freakin' sense). I like to think of it a bit like Old Ironsides.
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Old February 22 2013, 03:15 PM   #41
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Re: Early starfleet.

Timo wrote: View Post
This doesn't exactly mean that other types of engine would not have already achieved, say, warp three or warp four.
This is my read on it too. The Enterprise topping out at warp five, instead of warp four, would have been a major break-through. But it meant a ship going twice as fast, not ten or a hundred times as fast.

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Weirdly, they didn't have hull numbers. I guess someome realized, "Oh shit! These are meant to be older ships but we've already started numbering at 01!"
The Enterprise was the NX-01, of the NX class. The ships that came to her aid in The Expanse (Intrepid and two others) could have been of the NW class, with the lead ship in that class being the NW-01.

Jean-Luc Picard: "Plenty of letters left in the alphabet."

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The Americans wouldn't let the Japanese have an offensive military force after ww2.
Theoretically, on paper, yes. In actuality Japan continued after the war to possess a large military force. Today it has the second most powerful on East Asia, only China's is larger.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Is it possible that The "World Government" Crusher was talking about and the institution referred to as "United Earth" are completely different organizations?
And both of them existed with the "New United Nations." Each with a different collection of Earth nations. Or some nations being member of two (or all three) organizations.

From the Trek history we've been presented with, the New United Nations and some version of United Earth did exist at the same time.

In the mid 22nd century, how many self proclaimed "world governments" were there anyway?

I remember there being a Vulcan Embassy in Canberra.
Do you remember what year this was to have been?

There are three countries on the planet out of 196 (depending how you count) today who do not belong to the United Nations.
Four if you also include South Sudan. Depending on what you view as "a nation," the number of nations on Earth today could be as high as 250.

King Daniel wrote: View Post
We know they had the giant Einstein-class ships, like the USS Kelvin, in the 2230's.
But that ship only existed in an alternative universe.

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Old February 22 2013, 03:53 PM   #42
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Re: Early starfleet.

Terra Prime in 2155.

[Orpheus Central Control]
GREAVES: I've spoken to our operatives. There's no indication that the Vulcans have withdrawn from their consulates in Canberra or Berlin.
PAXTON: I never expected them to comply. Let's get this done.
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Old February 22 2013, 04:19 PM   #43
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Re: Early starfleet.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
We know they had the giant Einstein-class ships, like the USS Kelvin, in the 2230's.
But that ship only existed in an alternative universe.

From Trekmovie.com, shortly after the release of the 2009 movie:

GaryS: Was the timeline that Nero visited the original past up to the point that George Kirk is killed? Or was it always an alternate timeline because Nero was destined to travel there?

BobOrci: We think of it is as identical to the original until Nero arrives.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/22/orci...kmovie-fan-qa/

Word of Bob Orci > T'Girl

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Old February 22 2013, 05:04 PM   #44
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Re: Early starfleet.

The Enterprise was the NX-01, of the NX class
And if pennant letters in the UE Starfleet mean the same thing as they do in today's navies, that is, they describe the role of the ship, NX might well be the designation of deep space Xplorers - of which the Enterprise would indeed be the very first ever.

There might have been, say, five different CC classes of combat cruisers, the first featuring CC-01 through CC-12, the last featuring CC-78 through CC-94 or something like that. But only one NX class. Which then means that "She's NX class" would be a workable, unique identifier, an alternative to "Enterprise class" - but nobody could say "She's CC class" and get his message through, hence the need for "Neptune class" or "Triton class" when describing combat cruisers.

From the Trek history we've been presented with, the New United Nations and some version of United Earth did exist at the same time.
I don't think we need to presume this. The only date at which the NUN was known to have existed was 2036, and our earliest UESPA reference would seem to be from the late 2060s; what other UE references are there for the 21st century?

Word of Bob Orci > T'Girl
...But word of Bob Orci << word of T'Girl.

Beyond that, Kirk as played by Pine looks different from Kirk as played by Shatner. The two aren't of the same height, either, nor do they have the same eye color. Basically, this means that according to Bob Orci, the USS Kelvin we see may be the new look for the original USS Calvin which was more angular and twenty percent smaller but was still the very same ship.

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Old February 22 2013, 05:17 PM   #45
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Re: Early starfleet.

I wouldn't go so far as to change the spelling, but yes, the USS Kelvin would look slightly different in the original 60's TV show just as everything else does. Same future, seen through different eyes.
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