Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

[CorporalClegg]

BillJ wrote:

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While my endgame would be different, I've been preaching exactly what your saying for years now.

Welcome to Galactic Clusterfuck 101.

Let's just say Ru'afo and his buddies wouldn't be going home for quite a while after the project was complete.

Captain William T. Ridama would be one serious bad-ass motherfucker.

[T'Girl]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Again in the simulation it looked like THE. RINGS. WERE. DISINTEGRATING.

Okay, that would have been the (IIRC) "isolinic reaction" that allowed the particulates in orbit to be collected. This is also the source of the heat that require the Baku to be removed.

As in no more rings, as in no more radiation being generated.

Not quite the particales were removed. However the particale would have continued to to generate the radiation where they were taken.

]If there are no new particles being generated because THERE ARE NO RINGS TO GENERATE THEM

I don't think that where the new particles were originating.

then that means there is only a limited supply that will eventually run out.

Okay, this is where you're missing something.

It has to do with where the particale came from in the first place. They could have formed with the planet itself billions of years in the past. Which means they are billions of years old, and are permanate.

Or, they are emitted by the systems sun, some paticales are captured by the planet's magnetic field and formed into a ring. Somewhat like our own Van Allen Radiation Belt. The majority of the particale travel outward into the Brier Patch, where they form a very thin defuse cloud.

Or siilar to above, they originate in the Brier Patch, and are again captured.

If the particale are permanate, then no problem with the collected particale, the Federation (and others) will have them forever.

If the particales in the ring do age out and basically die in time, this means the particale in the ring were being "resupplied" as fast as the existing particale died.

So when the Federation's collected particale died, they simply return to the planet and collect the new particles that the plante has captured.

[Timo]

Okay, that would have been the (IIRC) "isolinic reaction" that allowed the particulates in orbit to be collected. This is also the source of the heat that require the Baku to be removed.

The reason for the collection was not just to gather some elixir of youth for the Son'a. An equally important reason for the operation was to ruin the fountain of youth for good, so that the Ba'ku would die of old age just like any other members of their species. I'm sure the Son'a would have made sure that the rings (or whatever the fundamental source of the health effects) would be completely destroyed, hopefully also with some painful side effects to those down on the planet.

It was a mission of vengeance and destruction, after all, and the Son'a were the only ones who knew how the technology worked. Either they would have slipped in a destructive element or eleven without the technologically less advanced Starfleet noticing - or then they would have slipped in those elements come hell or high water, since destruction of Ba'ku happiness was a non-negotiable mission goal.

Timo Saloniemi

[BillJ]

Timo wrote:

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It was a mission of vengeance and destruction...

Have you even seen the movie?

It would've went smooth as butter until Picard stuck his nose in and pissed off Ru'afo.

[Robert Maxwell]

Timo wrote:

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The reason for the collection was not just to gather some elixir of youth for the Son'a. An equally important reason for the operation was to ruin the fountain of youth for good, so that the Ba'ku would die of old age just like any other members of their species. I'm sure the Son'a would have made sure that the rings (or whatever the fundamental source of the health effects) would be completely destroyed, hopefully also with some painful side effects to those down on the planet.

It was a mission of vengeance and destruction, after all, and the Son'a were the only ones who knew how the technology worked. Either they would have slipped in a destructive element or eleven without the technologically less advanced Starfleet noticing - or then they would have slipped in those elements come hell or high water, since destruction of Ba'ku happiness was a non-negotiable mission goal.

Timo Saloniemi

It was explicitly stated in the film that harvesting the radiation using the Son'a collector would render the planet uninhabitable. It wouldn't just make the Ba'ku mortal, it would kill them. That's the whole reason they had to bother about trying to surreptitiously move them.

[Timo]

Sure, sure. But the idea that the process would somehow leave the fountain of youth intact runs contrary to the explicit desire of the Son'a to make the Ba'ku suffer.

We have little reason to believe that the planet needed to be rendered uninhabitable in the collection process. There might have been some truth to the Son'a needing the collector so that they would get the cure in time, but they could and would have lied about the collateral damage: a harmless collection process would probably have been perfectly possible, too, but that would have been contrary to Son'a interests.

Have you even seen the movie? It would've went smooth as butter until Picard stuck his nose in and pissed off Ru'afo.

Sure - as long as the definition of "smooth" includes all the Ba'ku dying horribly.

The holographic transport would never have arrived safely anywhere, that much is certain.

Timo Saloniemi

[BillJ]

Timo wrote:

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Sure - as long as the definition of "smooth" includes all the Ba'ku dying horribly.

The holographic transport would never have arrived safely anywhere, that much is certain.

Man you make up some wild shit without any actual evidence to back it up.

[Timo]

Don't you mean you do? The idea that the Son'a would let the Ba'ku live is so out of the left field that I can't fathom how you could get it from watching this movie.

The events progressed from lie to lie, until at the very end the truth was revealed. And the truth was that this was all a blood feud.

Picard: "You brought the Federation into the middle of a blood feud, Admiral. The children have returned to expel their elders, just as they were once expelled. Except that Ru'afo's need for revenge has now escalated to parricide."

"Escalated" is Picard's estimate. But consider Rua'fo's earlier words:

"Just don't forget what they did to us. ...We'll have them rounded up in a day or two. We needn't bother with the Federation holoship any more. Just get the holding cells ready."

Obviously, the holoship was never going to reach its destination, as the Ba'ku would then get a chance to reveal the truth to the Federation. The Son'a would know that the Ba'ku were no primitives: they could not be fooled with holograms into believing they were still on Ba'ku. And the Son'a would know the Federation would not like the truth, as well evidenced by their many threats regarding that, Dougherty's counterthreats, and the action taken against Riker's ship.

The case appears airtight. The Son'a were out to kill, and there was no way they could not kill and still expect to survive.

Timo Saloniemi

[BillJ]

Timo wrote:

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Obviously, the holoship was never going to reach its destination, as the Ba'ku would then get a chance to reveal the truth to the Federation.

The planet would've been stripped of the radiation and the S'ona long gone by the time the Ba'ku realized anything happened.

The case appears airtight. The Son'a were out to kill, and there was no way they could not kill and still expect to survive.

This is utter bullshit, Timo. No where is there any hint of this being anything other than a straight move until Picard gets involved and starts using the Ba'ku men, women and children as human shields. He came far closer to getting them killed than Ru'afo did. You might want to go and revisit the film.

If it was about killing, the S'ona could've simply went in and wiped the Ba'ku out and set up shop in the Briar Patch and Starfleet would've never been any wiser. If you're intent on committing a crime, why complicate it far more than it needs to be?

[Timo]

The planet would've been stripped of the radiation and the S'ona long gone by the time the Ba'ku realized anything happened.

The Son'a had nowhere to go. Remember that Dougherty swore that Starfleet would hunt them down for their crimes - the location of the Son'a empire was apparently well known, and its military power no match for Starfleet, at least not enough to give them immunity.

The plot necessarily involved making up some scheme for Ba'ku survival. But the plot necessarily could not tolerate the Ba'ku actually surviving. They would know way too much, and they could never be left unaware of the events; it follows that they had to be eliminated.

No where is there any hint of this being anything other than a straight move until

Yeah, until. You don't seem to understand that the movie consists of layer upon layer of lies, which are slowly peeled off, so that finally both Dougherty and Picard realize they have been working on false assumptions. What is left is a situation where the Son'a just plain cannot afford to leave any Ba'ku alive - and the revelation that they would have no desire to, anyway.

If it was about killing, the S'ona could've simply went in and wiped the Ba'ku out and set up shop in the Briar Patch and Starfleet would've never been any wiser.

But that was ruled out early in the movie, by people who were not telling lies. The case was simple enough: Ba'ku was UFP-controlled turf, and the Son'a had no business going into the Briar Patch unless the Federation gave them a permit (and an escort).

If you're intent on committing a crime, why complicate it far more than it needs to be?

Which one is more complicated, murdering a planet with one ship and none of the witnesses any wiser, or murdering a planet with an invasion fleet that has to fight through Starfleet to even reach the intended victim?

If the movie indeed takes place after the Dominion War concludes, the Son'a will have to be very, very nice to the Federation to get their permit. Being allied to the losing side of the last war bodes ill for any attempt to pursue one's goals through further war with the victors.

Timo Saloniemi

[Robert Maxwell]

BillJ wrote:

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The planet would've been stripped of the radiation and the S'ona long gone by the time the Ba'ku realized anything happened.

This is utter bullshit, Timo. No where is there any hint of this being anything other than a straight move until Picard gets involved and starts using the Ba'ku men, women and children as human shields. He came far closer to getting them killed than Ru'afo did. You might want to go and revisit the film.

If it was about killing, the S'ona could've simply went in and wiped the Ba'ku out and set up shop in the Briar Patch and Starfleet would've never been any wiser. If you're intent on committing a crime, why complicate it far more than it needs to be?

Not to mention, Ru'afo isn't necessarily a simple thug. Moving the Ba'ku to another planet without their knowledge, so they can die slowly while he enjoys the benefits of immortality strikes me as a pretty delicious (if complicated) revenge.

I don't think he necessarily needed the Ba'ku to know he was the one who doomed them, just that they were doomed in the first place, and he would live on.

Would he have simply used the collector to kill the Ba'ku if the Federation hadn't been involved? Possibly. But once they were involved and brought the holoship into the picture, I can see him being okay with the Ba'ku just dying "naturally," as long as he gets his Fountain of Youth.

[Timo]

Moving the Ba'ku to another planet without their knowledge...

...Is impossible.

It could have worked on the primitive folks of "Homeward". But the Ba'ku are seasoned starfarers, and would immediately notice what had happened. The Federation does not realize this, hence the holoship, but Rua'fo would have known this all along.

Timo Saloniemi

[BillJ]

Timo wrote:

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...Is impossible.

It could have worked on the primitive folks of "Homeward". But the Ba'ku are seasoned starfarers, and would immediately notice what had happened. The Federation does not realize this, hence the holoship, but Rua'fo would have known this all along.

Timo Saloniemi

Who hadn't been in space in at least three centuries. Keep on reaching...

EDIT: And let's be clear on one thing, it isn't Ru'afo who breaks the agreement. It's Starfleet by being unable to control one of their starship captains.

[sonak]

Timo wrote:

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Don't you mean you do? The idea that the Son'a would let the Ba'ku live is so out of the left field that I can't fathom how you could get it from watching this movie.

The events progressed from lie to lie, until at the very end the truth was revealed. And the truth was that this was all a blood feud.

"Escalated" is Picard's estimate. But consider Rua'fo's earlier words:

Obviously, the holoship was never going to reach its destination, as the Ba'ku would then get a chance to reveal the truth to the Federation. The Son'a would know that the Ba'ku were no primitives: they could not be fooled with holograms into believing they were still on Ba'ku. And the Son'a would know the Federation would not like the truth, as well evidenced by their many threats regarding that, Dougherty's counterthreats, and the action taken against Riker's ship.

The case appears airtight. The Son'a were out to kill, and there was no way they could not kill and still expect to survive.

Timo Saloniemi

This post is essentially made-up nonsense. The only reason the plan fell apart in the first place was Data's malfunction, and then Picard's refusal to leave when he was ordered to.

[HaventGotALife]

It was released in December of 1998. Therefore, the 7th season was half over with. It was released in theatres while DS9 was on hiatus for a month. It was released between "Covenant" and "It's Only a Paper Moon." If First Contact is any indication, the producers waited 3 months in DS9 before the movie's events showed up. That would make it, at the latest, when the 8-part arc started at the end of the show.

The fact of the matter is that Insurrection should've been released in June of 1999 to save any confusion.