How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

[Noname Given]

Dick_Valentine wrote:

---

Tonight on CBS Action here in the UK I watched the episode where Kirk loses his memory and marries a primitive woman while the Enterprise is left to attack an asteroid on course for the planet and the Asteroid part looked great on my HD TV, the final shot from the planet's defences could've been more dynamic though, perhaps even blowed the damn thing up.

Funny thing about the TOS-R version of that final shot -- In the episode itself Mirimani comment that the Medicine Man makes a 'blue flame' shoot out from the Obelisk -- and in the original version of the episode; it is a blue beam that shoots out.

In the TOS-R version, the beam is red -- thus it looks like the CGI group didn't really watch the episode or refer to the script and someone just thought: "They used blue beams a lot -- lets make this red."

[Gary7]

I wanted to see Sulu and his millionaire stack of pennies...



Everyone tried to be as patient as possible while Sulu physically demonstrated the penny doubling scenario.

[CorporalCaptain]

Gary7 wrote:

---

I wanted to see Sulu and his millionaire stack of pennies...



Everyone tried to be as patient as possible while Sulu physically demonstrated the penny doubling scenario.

Now the bored look on Dr. Piper's face really makes sense.

[ZapBrannigan]

The simple black box "Spock's Brain" was housed in could have been spruced up a little, they way they re-did Mr Norman's innards for "I, Mudd."

A fancy electronic facia on the brain box might be cool, but a transparent box where you see the brain floating in a solution with bubbles rising through it might be wrong. That's Hammer Films territory.

[ZapBrannigan]

Here's a judgement call:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...sionhd0444.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...etarhd1386.jpg

McCoy wore an engineering insignia on his short-sleeve uniform in "Obsession" and Scotty had a sciences insignia on his red shirt in "The Lights of Zetar." Should CBS have corrected them?

These were accidents, not the intention of the producers.

On the other hand, some of us might take a little joy in being able to spot things like this, and consider them part of the show's true fabric (in much the way that an imperfection in Spock's ears would be part of STAR TREK's actual make-up).

And another one:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...rrowhd0549.jpg

Should the incredibly beautiful Dr Ann Mulhall be put into a blue uniform with a sciences patch? It would right a technical wrong, but it wouldn't look as good! This is a conundrum. I suspect (help me out here) that her make-up and lighting may have been done with the red uniform in mind. So, take her out of that dress and what have you got?

[DakotaSmith]

I guess as a life-long TOS fan (I'm 48 and one of my first memories is of the Mugatu), I'm comfortable with what they did. My internal filter was the question:

"If this technology had been available in 1966-69, is this a shot they would've used at that time?"

Clearly, it's possible to go the other way. The noteworthy thing about ST2009 is its embracing of modern CGI.

If they'd done that with TOS-R, I'd've disliked it. It's fine for the new incarnation to be more visual and more fluid with its effects. It would totally violate anything like the spirit of the original.

This rather touches on an aspect of things, which is how standards have changed:

When TOS aired, it was an action-adventure show in a sci-fi context. And it really was an action show. Kirk getting into a fist-fight as shown on the show was legitimately thrilling to audiences of the day.

ST2009 is an action-adventure movie in a sci-fi context. For the modern era, it really is an action movie. Kirk getting into a fist-fight as shown in the movie is legitimately thrilling to audiences today.

TOS-R could have chosen to go the ST2009 route and make the new shots visually exciting by modern standards. They didn't, and for me it works.

Dakota Smith

[Gary7]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

---

Now the bored look on Dr. Piper's face really makes sense.

That's exactly what I was thinking--thanks for noticing.

ZapBrannigan wrote:

---

Here's a judgement call:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...sionhd0444.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...etarhd1386.jpg

McCoy wore an engineering insignia on his short-sleeve uniform in "Obsession" and Scotty had a sciences insignia on his red shirt in "The Lights of Zetar." Should CBS have corrected them?

These were accidents, not the intention of the producers.

On the other hand, some of us might take a little joy in being able to spot things like this, and consider them part of the show's true fabric (in much the way that an imperfection in Spock's ears would be part of STAR TREK's actual make-up).

And another one:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...rrowhd0549.jpg

Should the incredibly beautiful Dr Ann Mulhall be put into a blue uniform with a sciences patch? It would right a technical wrong, but it wouldn't look as good! This is a conundrum. I suspect (help me out here) that her make-up and lighting may have been done with the red uniform in mind. So, take her out of that dress and what have you got?

While notable mistakes for the Trek fanatic, it's a wash for the majority of people. I wouldn't have noticed those mistakes, not now, not ever. I don't look for such things with a fine tooth comb. I guess it's tempting to do this with blu-ray revealing so much more detail, but when you watch an episode so many times that you practically know the dialog, you then can wander off and stare at the surroundings of each shot for all it reveals. You are going to find mistakes like this in ANY TV series where a certain degree of consistency is supposed to be shown (like the insignia of uniforms, whether they be modern day police or futuristic soldiers). Trying to fix it all would not be cost productive. I wouldn't expect it to have been done, nor frown upon the TOS-R producers for having left in those mistakes.

What bugs me is when they change things that previously worked and make them wrong, like the blue laser shooting out of the obelisk in "The Paradise Syndrome" being changed to red... as someone else pointed out, making it look like someone tried to be creative at the expense of accuracy.

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Gary7 wrote:

---

...I guess it's tempting to do this with blu-ray revealing so much more detail, but when you watch an episode so many times that you practically know the dialog, you then can wander off and stare at the surroundings of each shot for all it reveals. You are going to find mistakes like this in ANY TV series where a certain degree of consistency is supposed to be shown (like the insignia of uniforms, whether they be modern day police or futuristic soldiers). ...

The mistakes are not just restricted to TV series. For example, near the end of TMP, Spock and McCoy are wearing each others field jackets. McCoy's field jacket has the green stripe (for medical division [or science division, medical branch, if you prefer]) and Spock's field jacket has the orange stripe (for science division).

Here is the mistake courtesy of trekcore.

Here is a link to information about the Starfleet Uniforms from TMP courtesy of Memory-Alpha.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

[blssdwlf]

Were those insignia "mistakes" in TOS really mistakes? I mean, were they ever identified as to mean a specific department in the series or is this something we've retroactively applied to them?

[plynch]

blssdwlf wrote:

---

Were those insignia "mistakes" in TOS really mistakes? I mean, were they ever identified as to mean a specific department in the series or is this something we've retroactively applied to them?

If McCoy always wears the little globe-y one and in one shot has the Fibonacci-spiral one, yup, that's a mistake. Same for Scotty with my (er, I mean his) beloved Mira.

But what a great picture of DeForest Kelley!

And Ann Mulhall could have a doctorate in an engineering field, right? Or does the script contradict that? I think someone on the bbs postulated that as an explanation for her in her fetching red outfit, nom nom.

To answer the question, yes, if you're (CBS) going to add all sorts of cartoon-Enterprise shots and planet scenes, change a couple of patches somehow. My opinion. I don't care about cost, since it's not my money and they've made gazillions off us through Trek.

[blssdwlf]

So McCoy's outfit changes between shots in the same episode? If that is so, then yeah, that would be a mistake. But if his outfit happens to stay the same in the same episode but different from other episodes, maybe not. I guess I'll take a look.

edit: Did anyone notice that one of the earliest episodes had Scotty wearing the same insignia he wore later on as identified as a mistake by ZapBrannigan?

Are we really so sure as to the meaning of these insignias?

[Navigator_NCC2120]

blssdwlf wrote:

---

So McCoy's outfit changes between shots in the same episode? If that is so, then yeah, that would be a mistake. But if his outfit happens to stay the same in the same episode but different from other episodes, maybe not. I guess I'll take a look.

edit: Did anyone notice that one of the earliest episodes had Scotty wearing the same insignia he wore later on as identified as a mistake by ZapBrannigan?

Are we really so sure as to the meaning of these insignias?

Yes, after the second pilot episode the science insignia and the ship services insignia were switched on the uniforms. That is why Scotty is wearing the science insignia in the second pilot episode and Astro-sciences physicist Sulu and Dr. Piper (and Dr. Dehner) are wearing the ship services insignia in the second pilot episode.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

[blssdwlf]

Navigator_NCC2120 wrote:

---

Yes, after the second pilot episode the science insignia and the ship services insignia were switched on the uniforms. That is why Scotty is wearing the science insignia in the second pilot episode and Astro-sciences physicist Sulu and Dr. Piper (and Dr. Dehner) are wearing the ship services insignia in the second pilot episode.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: how do we know that the insignias mean "science" and "ship services" since they were used differently in the same series run? Example: Scotty goes from circular insignia in "WNMHGB" to reverse-C for many episodes and then sports the circular one again in "Lights of Zetar". And then the circular one again for more episodes. It doesn't sound like a mistake since the meaning of the insignia is not established and he had worn it previously.

Other ships (like the Constellation) don't appear to even have room on their insignia to differentiate between services (see Decker's insignia).

edit: Could the insignia be more of a ship or fleet identification rather than an indicator of service? Or something else entirely? The shirt colors already seem to suggest different services.

[Navigator_NCC2120]

blssdwlf wrote:

---

I guess what I'm getting at is this: how do we know that the insignias mean "science" and "ship services" since they were used differently in the same series run? Example: Scotty goes from circular insignia in "WNMHGB" to reverse-C for many episodes and then sports the circular one again in "Lights of Zetar". And then the circular one again for more episodes. It doesn't sound like a mistake since the meaning of the insignia is not established and he had worn it previously.

Other ships (like the Constellation) don't appear to even have room on their insignia to differentiate between services (see Decker's insignia).

blssdwlf,

I understand what you are saying. However, during "The Lights of Zetar" episode, Scotty's insignia changes during that episode from the ship services insignia to the science insignia and back. I am not aware of any other time this happens to this character in another episode.

Yes, I agree with you that Commodore Decker's insignia should have a black star on it to designate it as a command insignia.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

[RAMA]

ZapBrannigan wrote:

---

I'm imagining Marta's explosive demise in "Whom Gods Destroy" and wondering if the CGI artists should have added a big splash of green blood smacking the window and running down, leaving a stain.


In other words, should they have traded historicity for impact?

The CGi was very restrained throughout the series, and I wonder if they could have done a little more here and there without straying too far from the original feeling. Note that the original was restrained by a combination of budget, technology, and the broadcast standards of the time, so it wasn't necessarily the "intent" of the creators.

Yes they could and should have done more. Still, we know how much care CBS-Digital puts into it's work. What we got was as good as it can get under the purview and conditions set.

RAMA