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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old February 20 2013, 04:33 PM   #586
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Ancient Aliens

RAMA wrote: View Post
In the long term even if there were no disasters through cosmological timescale in our solar system, I don't see mankind as an exponentially growing species as able to remain self-sustaining, therefore even the solar system will be outstripped.
Assuming humanity IS an exponentially growing species; the growth curve is expected to flatten out and eventually reverse within the next sixty years.

But that's a problem for the distant future -- 2 or 3 millenia from now -- by which time the solar-system spanning humanity will be able to begin to think about expanding to neighboring star systems using technology they already have. But that's not going to happen until humans have become accustomed to living and working in space as a matter of course.
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Old February 20 2013, 04:36 PM   #587
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Re: Ancient Aliens

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Long term...I suggested bypassing space travel altogether, large spaceships might be already obsolete by 2050
Probably not.

carrying DNA and stored humans in databanks would eliminate long duration space travel and be more efficient on many levels.
More efficient than WHAT? You're not going to conduct a manned Mars mission by shipping a bunch of frozen embryos and cloning the crew on arrival. There are NO circumstances where that scenario is in any way more efficient than simply loading up a trained crew and flying them there.
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Old March 6 2013, 03:17 PM   #588
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Re: Ancient Aliens

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Long term...I suggested bypassing space travel altogether, large spaceships might be already obsolete by 2050
Probably not.

carrying DNA and stored humans in databanks would eliminate long duration space travel and be more efficient on many levels.
More efficient than WHAT? You're not going to conduct a manned Mars mission by shipping a bunch of frozen embryos and cloning the crew on arrival. There are NO circumstances where that scenario is in any way more efficient than simply loading up a trained crew and flying them there.
For interplanetary missions that might be the case for awhile, but, efficiency is a huge selling point of the EIS starship/probes. Aside from cost factor, the fact is food and life supporting supplies, crew space, fuel for the payload, are wasteful for spaceflight if you don't NEED them.

Cheap exploration:

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/scie...-playlist.htm#

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Old March 6 2013, 03:40 PM   #589
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Where would they be sent? I'm assuming no instant human kits would be sent at random, which brings about the possibility that a generational shipload of human babies are created in a hostile environment, possibly as the new lab experiments for schoolkids on the destination planet.
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Old March 6 2013, 05:38 PM   #590
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Re: Ancient Aliens

RAMA wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Long term...I suggested bypassing space travel altogether, large spaceships might be already obsolete by 2050
Probably not.

carrying DNA and stored humans in databanks would eliminate long duration space travel and be more efficient on many levels.
More efficient than WHAT? You're not going to conduct a manned Mars mission by shipping a bunch of frozen embryos and cloning the crew on arrival. There are NO circumstances where that scenario is in any way more efficient than simply loading up a trained crew and flying them there.
For interplanetary missions that might be the case for awhile, but, efficiency is a huge selling point of the EIS starship/probes.
LOL no it isn't.

Aside from cost factor
There is nothing aside from the cost factor. There's no return on investment, therefore there's no incentive to invest anything. The only interstellar probes that are feasible at this point are very small ones that have at least one other secondary purpose, like the Voyager probes that return useful data on a target of interest before being catapulted out of the solar system towards the stars.
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Old March 8 2013, 08:40 PM   #591
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Re: Ancient Aliens

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Probably not.

More efficient than WHAT? You're not going to conduct a manned Mars mission by shipping a bunch of frozen embryos and cloning the crew on arrival. There are NO circumstances where that scenario is in any way more efficient than simply loading up a trained crew and flying them there.
For interplanetary missions that might be the case for awhile, but, efficiency is a huge selling point of the EIS starship/probes.
LOL no it isn't.

Aside from cost factor
There is nothing aside from the cost factor. There's no return on investment, therefore there's no incentive to invest anything. The only interstellar probes that are feasible at this point are very small ones that have at least one other secondary purpose, like the Voyager probes that return useful data on a target of interest before being catapulted out of the solar system towards the stars.

It's hilarious, even the title of the video was called cheap exploration.

Facts are facts, when you don't require space, food and fuel for humans, the trip becomes easier, cheaper and faster. Arguing otherwise seems ludicrous.

When you amplify it out to galaxy exploration, the benefits become clear. I don't believe there is a single scientist who'd agree with your position. I'll still say it's almost inevitable this is the way to explore the galaxy. Unless we discover shortcuts through space or warp drives, the default most efficient method will be the one used.

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Old March 8 2013, 08:48 PM   #592
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Where would they be sent? I'm assuming no instant human kits would be sent at random, which brings about the possibility that a generational shipload of human babies are created in a hostile environment, possibly as the new lab experiments for schoolkids on the destination planet.
Well there may be a pre-set search pattern, parameters and so on, but I'm also betting there will be a strong element of AI, especially if it occurs in the next 30-40 years. I'm not quite sure we'll be ready for galaxy travel in any form till after 2050.

Unfortunately while it is a better way to travel, a seed ship is probably more likely to fail than succeed, so it'll be important to really explore thoroughly with non-seed probes ahead of time. The von neumann probes of all types will have a high failure rate which is why it's important that they will be launched and replicate in large numbers. Ethically I can deal with copies of humans, especially ones that don't have their brains uploaded dying, better than a crew on a traditional ship in some sort of hyper sleep or generational starship.
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Old March 8 2013, 10:19 PM   #593
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Brains uploaded? What precisely do you think a human embryo is?
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Old March 9 2013, 09:47 AM   #594
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Brains uploaded? What precisely do you think a human embryo is?
Simian caviar?
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Old March 9 2013, 04:53 PM   #595
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Brains uploaded? What precisely do you think a human embryo is?

You'll have to read earlier in the thread and watch the videos to understand what i mean probably.

Simply, and EIS ship will have either embroyos, or more likely DNA which will likely be used to clone a copy of you. After that, emerging exponential technologies like brain uploading/downloading (circa 2025-2050 tech) will be used to rejoin the body, creating an exact copy of you down to your thoughts and memories. Think "syncording" from Arnold's 6th Day.

See here also:http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=204859

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=205297
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Old March 10 2013, 05:36 AM   #596
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Re: Ancient Aliens

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Facts are facts, when you don't require space, food and fuel for humans, the trip becomes easier, cheaper and faster. Arguing otherwise seems ludicrous.
The easiest, cheapest and fastest spaceflight in the world is the one that never leaves the planning stages. You haven't provided a coherent reason yet why any mission more expensive than that would be beneficial to anyone.

When you amplify it out to galaxy exploration, the benefits become clear.
There wouldn't BE any benefits in that case since the people who launch the probe will have entered the fossil record by the time the probe gets anywhere interesting, and their evolutionary descendants will join them by the time anyone on Earth finds out about it, assuming they ever do.

I don't believe there is a single scientist who'd agree with your position.
The position that seeding the universe with human DNA on million-year-long fully automated spaceflights has no concrete scientific or monetary value to anyone currently alive or likely to be alive within the next thousand years?

I think I'll let the scientists speak for themselves on this one.

I'll still say it's almost inevitable this is the way to explore the galaxy.
It isn't, because we're not going to explore the galaxy until we're finished exploring our own solar system IF THEN. We'll have human beings born and raised on space colonies out to ten generations before exploring the galaxy becomes anything more than a sci-fi pipe dream. Otherwise, you're basically in the position of a Polynesian fisherman proposing a moon mission using a canoe strapped to a hot air balloon.
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Old March 11 2013, 09:51 PM   #597
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Re: Ancient Aliens

RAMA wrote: View Post
emerging exponential technologies like brain uploading/downloading (circa 2025-2050 tech)
Sorry, I had to LOL.
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Old March 11 2013, 10:55 PM   #598
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Wouldn't brain downloading count as murder?
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Old March 12 2013, 11:15 AM   #599
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Yes, I do believe it would.
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Old March 12 2013, 12:29 PM   #600
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Could you imagine that as a way to murder someone? Upload their brain into a computer while they sleep, then delete it...
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