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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 19 2013, 07:16 PM   #31
indolover
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Just to be contrary -

Why would "citizenship" mean the same thing in the 24th century as it does now? And why would it mean anything to Worf? He's a Klingon. As Timo points out, what does "citizen" mean in Klingon society? Either you're a Klingon, or you're not. If you are, you're subject to Klingon laws, regardless of where you live or what some form in some computer says.

The UFP might have a definition of "citizen", but we never heard of it, did we? Citizens of the Federation were pretty much defined by their species. If you're a Vulcan, you're a citizen of the Federation. If you're not a member of a species that was a member society of the UFP, what are you? Can you be a citizen of the UFP? Are there naturalization procedures to follow? We never heard of them. No one was ever identified as a Federation citizen that wasn't obviously a member of the known Federation member societies. Can Worf be a citizen of the UFP? To Klingons, renouncing citizenship could be like pretending you don't have forehead ridges - it's impossible to deny the existence of ridges, and trying to do so would indicate some sort of delusion on the part of the denier.

As for requiring citizenship to hold an office for the UFP, why would that be necessary? I reject the notion that everything about the UFP is descended directly from the US legal structure. Particularly when dealing with the Klingons, who may not have a notion of "citzenship", why would the UFP worry about the citizenship of the ambassador to the Klingons? Perhaps the UFP regularly uses intermediaries in diplomatic relations with the Klingon Empire - we don't know that Curzon Dax, or Trills in general, are UFP members, yet there was no doubt that Dax acted as an ambassador for the UFP to the Klingons.

What of the other large empires of the Alpha Quadrant? Both the Romulans and the Cardassians were known to have subject races - the Remans and the Bajorans. What was the legal status of those species? Were they Romulan and Cardassian citizens (respectively) or just subjugated races with no legal standing in their respective societies?

It's too bad the topic of citizenship didn't come up more often in some of the Trek shows, as it would be an interesting to see how a multispecies interstellar polity would treat the matter.
Maybe anybody born in a Federation member world would be automatically a citizen. That said, as there is a Federation Charter/Bill of Rights (of which Picard cited the "Seventh Guarantee" as being an important part), there must be some provision to determine who is subject to this, and the remedies should it be violated.
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Old February 19 2013, 09:07 PM   #32
Sci
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
The aliens of Trek are insufficiently creative, Sci.
That may be. But the concept of citizenship is a necessary development when you have neighboring polities whose populaces may cross borders and otherwise intermingle -- which is certainly the case for the Star Trek Universe. You have to have some way to define "ours" and "theirs" when you have separate polities; it's inherent to the definition of a polity.
I agree, but I suggest the concept of "citizenship" for some alien societies may be no more sophisticated than "same species" or "different species".
I don't disagree, but the Federation is itself comprised of so many different species -- and seems to attract so much immigration from non-Federation worlds -- that it would almost have to develop a legal concept of citizenship that's more sophisticated than that.

* * *

Re: Nog. I see no reason why Nog could not have acquired Federation citizenship some time after entering the Academy -- and I see no reason why Nog couldn't have continued serving in Starfleet without obtaining Federation citizenship, provided the Federation and Ferengi Alliance never became enemies.

Also, I don't think the Federation would require its Presidents to only be natural-born citizens. Too many worlds are likely joining the Federation all the time for that to be practical; you'd have a situation where an entire planet full of potential Federation Presidents would be discriminated against for the highest office for upwards of thirty years after a planet joins the UFP. It seems more rational to me to hypothesize that the Federation Presidency is legally open to any Federation citizen, irrelevant of whether they are natural-born or naturalized citizens.
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Old February 19 2013, 10:38 PM   #33
Pavonis
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

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....you'd have a situation where an entire planet full of potential Federation Presidents would be discriminated against for the highest office for upwards of thirty years after a planet joins the UFP. ...
As long as 50,000 years, if species like the Horta are members of the Federation. The entire Federation could be a distant memory before the first natural-born Horta citizens would be eligible for UFP offices!
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Old February 20 2013, 01:39 AM   #34
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
....you'd have a situation where an entire planet full of potential Federation Presidents would be discriminated against for the highest office for upwards of thirty years after a planet joins the UFP. ...
As long as 50,000 years, if species like the Horta are members of the Federation. The entire Federation could be a distant memory before the first natural-born Horta citizens would be eligible for UFP offices!
Excellent point!

The hypothesis that all Federation citizens who have reached the age of majority for their species are eligible to serve as President seems much more fair to me.
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Old February 20 2013, 02:42 AM   #35
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

indo, sorry, I should've been more clear, Moore said that in reference to Nog after he graduated from the Academy.
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Old February 20 2013, 07:37 AM   #36
Captain Verata
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Sci wrote: View Post
Also, I don't think the Federation would require its Presidents to only be natural-born citizens. Too many worlds are likely joining the Federation all the time for that to be practical; you'd have a situation where an entire planet full of potential Federation Presidents would be discriminated against for the highest office for upwards of thirty years after a planet joins the UFP. It seems more rational to me to hypothesize that the Federation Presidency is legally open to any Federation citizen, irrelevant of whether they are natural-born or naturalized citizens.
I am pretty sure if the Federation had a natural born citizen requirement, which I am not saying there is, they would apply the natural born citizenship retroactively to all natural born citizens of a newly joined planet. That would keep any, if any, benefits of the natural born citizen requirement and not needlessly discriminate potential Federation Presidents.
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Old February 20 2013, 07:50 AM   #37
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Captain Verata wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Also, I don't think the Federation would require its Presidents to only be natural-born citizens. Too many worlds are likely joining the Federation all the time for that to be practical; you'd have a situation where an entire planet full of potential Federation Presidents would be discriminated against for the highest office for upwards of thirty years after a planet joins the UFP. It seems more rational to me to hypothesize that the Federation Presidency is legally open to any Federation citizen, irrelevant of whether they are natural-born or naturalized citizens.
I am pretty sure if the Federation had a natural born citizen requirement, which I am not saying there is, they would apply the natural born citizenship retroactively to all natural born citizens of a newly joined planet. That would keep any, if any, benefits of the natural born citizen requirement and not needlessly discriminate potential Federation Presidents.
A fair hypothesis. Though I don't really see what the point of the natural-born requirement would be in that case; if you're willing to let the citizens of newly-joined worlds into the club, why not just expand it to any adult Federation citizen?

If, say, Worf were to decide he wanted to run for Federation President? I see no reason why someone who has served the Federation for decades, has fought and sacrificed for it, and has proven his loyalty to the Federation time and again, should be denied such an opportunity just because he was born on Qo'noS.
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Old February 20 2013, 11:38 AM   #38
Timo
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

And what if the UFP annexed Qo'noS at some point? Would the locals then become "natural-born" Feds overnight or not?

Would there exist an internal hierarchy within the UFP as the result, with "senior" worlds having a greater claim to governing than "junior" ones?

The "natural-born" claim would seem to be more trouble than worth for an empire that wants to expand yet in a benevolent, egalitarian manner where expansion is through carrot rather than stick.

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Old February 21 2013, 02:16 AM   #39
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Sci wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post

As long as 50,000 years, if species like the Horta are members of the Federation. The entire Federation could be a distant memory before the first natural-born Horta citizens would be eligible for UFP offices!
Excellent point!
A Horta president...that would, literally, rock.
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Old February 21 2013, 07:30 PM   #40
T'Girl
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

indolover wrote: View Post
Worf must be a naturalised citizen, and being a Federation citizen per se is not required to serve in Starfleet. Even in some countries in real world, citizens can serve in other nation-states' armed forces. As a Commonwealth country, an Australian can serve in the UK armed forces if s/he opted to.
But would Worf have to be a "Federation Citizen" to be a part of the Rozhenko family? Adopting a child from a foreign country doesn't in of itself make the child a American citizen, that's a seperate legal procedure.

You don't have to be an American citizen to be a enlist member of the US Armed Forces. Starfleet might have something similar for it's officer. I didn't get the impression that Ro was anything but Bajorian.

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Old February 21 2013, 10:02 PM   #41
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Here's my take on it.:

Worf became a Federation citizen when he was adopted by the Rozhenkos and for most of his life has the 21st century equivalent of "dual citizenship." Being a Federation citizen grants him rights and protections provided by Federation Law. I also think being a Starfleet Officer gives a person Federation citizenship and protection even if their homeplanet is not in the Federation (like Nog or Ro). In "Sins of the Father" Captain Picard refused to allow Worf to be put to death because he is a Starfleet Officer and a member of his crew ..

Conversely, I think there is a "citizenship" of sorts within the Klingon Empire, but I think it is done through membership to a House. When Worf accepts discommendation in "Sins of the Father" I see that as the Klingon version of revoking his citizenship. He is now an outsider and no longer one of them. He gets his "citizenship" back in Redemption but loses it again in Way of the Warrior (this guy just cannot keep it together!) In the same way, when Worf marries Jadzia, she joins Martok's house as well and becomes a "citizen' of the Empire, with all the rights and responsibilities therein.
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Old February 21 2013, 10:23 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

DS9 suggests that the Houses are noble families, though, and a class of commoners exists outside the Houses but is as Klingon as any of the nobleKlingons.

Martok was low-born, but his having a House doesn't exactly go against the idea of Houses being the mark of nobility. He did ascend in social status, after all, through military service. That the House carries his name is an indication of sorts that it has a very short history...

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Old February 21 2013, 10:27 PM   #43
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Timo wrote: View Post
That the House carries his name is an indication of sorts that it has a very short history
Perhaps the head of a Klingon House has the right to change its name to their own. If Martok was the eldest surviving member, for example, I'm sure it would qualify as HIS house, since he is the leader of it.
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Old February 22 2013, 01:05 AM   #44
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Perhaps Martok's house is named for a relative of his who was also named Martok? Similar to how Worf seems to be named after Colonel Worf from the sixth movie?
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Old February 22 2013, 02:54 AM   #45
T'Girl
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Re: Is worf a Federation Citizen

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
I also think being a Starfleet Officer gives a person Federation citizenship and protection even if their homeplanet is not in the Federation
Simply migrating to a Federation planet (or space station, what have you), and setting up residence there might be all that is require to be considered a "Federation citizen." All the rights, restrictions, and responsibilities are yours.

In the same way, when Worf marries Jadzia, she joins Martok's house as well and becomes a "citizen' of the Empire, with all the rights and responsibilities therein.
I wonder if Jadzia would have been considered a second class citizen? Because, while she was married to a Klingon, she wasn't a biological Klingon herself.

There are Klingons with family houses, who are on the council.

There are Klingons with family houses, who are not on the council.

There are Klingons without membership in a house (commoners).

Non-Klingons living within the Empire. When Ancient Rome would conqueror a new land, it's residents became Roman citizens (like it or not).

The occasional rumored slaves.

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