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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 17 2013, 12:53 AM   #16
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

sonak wrote: View Post
[
yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.
Becuase a finite source of magic youth particles really helps with getting shot by a weapon set to kill or being exploded

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion meaning, Yay advantage nullification.
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Old February 17 2013, 05:34 PM   #17
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
[
yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.
Becuase a finite source of magic youth particles really helps with getting shot by a weapon set to kill or being exploded

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion meaning, Yay advantage nullification.

it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops, and it would heal most battlefield injuries, and heal conditions which would have prevented others from joining the war effort in the first place. The fact that you brought up about the only scenario in which they WOULDN'T help doesn't exactly negate my argument.

As for your second point, I would hope that the UFP would be smart enough to conclude a deal whereby in exchange for giving the Son'a access to the planet, they would agree not to share the particles with the Dominion or their allies.
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Old February 18 2013, 02:08 AM   #18
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
[
yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.
Becuase a finite source of magic youth particles really helps with getting shot by a weapon set to kill or being exploded

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion meaning, Yay advantage nullification.

it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops,
Again not helpful against being blown up, sucked into space, vaporized, or just killed by an energy blast instantly (which is how the kill setting works).

and it would heal most battlefield injuries,
Where in the movie was that ever said, all it did was cure blindness and make everyone younger and it does that temporarily which is probably not a good thing about a again finite (as in runs out) amount of particles.

and heal conditions which would have prevented others from joining the war effort in the first place.
Doesn't federation technology already take care of most of that already

The fact that you brought up about the only scenario in which they WOULDN'T help doesn't exactly negate my argument.
Considering the scenario covers pretty much what all the battles of the war shown involved and probably all the ones not shown as well yes it does, or is Starfleet not usually seen either fighting the Dominion in space battles necessary to get to planets to invade or in ground battles using the kill setting which pretty much insta-kills people aka why its called the KILL setting

As for your second point, I would hope that the UFP would be smart enough to conclude a deal whereby in exchange for giving the Son'a access to the planet, they would agree not to share the particles with the Dominion or their allies.
And the Son'a would honor this agreement why exactly?

I mean hell a lot of the time it looked like the Federation was going to lose why screw over the Dominion when it looks like their going to be in charge in the end?
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Old February 18 2013, 04:04 AM   #19
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion
This is after the Dominion War ended, so ...

- Odo has already given the Founders the cure to section 31's engineered sickness.

- The Founders otherwise won't have any personal need for the particles, I believe they are already immoral.

- The Founder care nothing for their solid slaves and subjects.

Hartzilla2007, doesn't that pretty much prevent the Sona from from sharing with the Founders?

And the Son'a would honor this agreement why exactly?
Because they kept their side of their agreement with the Federation in Insurrection, at least until a single starship Captain decided that he would impress a certain blond Baku MILF by making decisions for the entire Federation.

It wasn't the Sona that broke that existing agreement, why would they break a future one?

Considering the scenario covers pretty much what all the battles of the war shown involved ..
Wrong again my friend. Starfleet vessels were routinely shown to take heavy damage that didn't destroy the ship, and didn't kill everyone aboard.

about a again finite (as in runs out) amount of particles.
You mean like the particles "ran out" while they were in orbit of the ring planet?

Oh, that's right, they didn't.

sonak wrote: View Post
it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops
Also would enable the Federation to rejuvenate long retired experienced personnel, pull them out of retirement.

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Old February 18 2013, 08:47 AM   #20
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion
This is after the Dominion War ended
So they specifically said when the film takes place, because it could be either way and since the person I am responding to is of the opinion that Insurrection takes place during the war that's why I'm pointing that problem out.

And the Son'a would honor this agreement why exactly?
Because they kept their side of their agreement with the Federation in Insurrection,
Yes because one group staying on another group's good side when they haven't gotten what they wanted yet an as such still need good relations with the other group to get it really shows how they act after not needing that other group anymore.

News flash you can't say for certain if the Son'a would screw the Feds over or not until they got the particles and considering Ru'afo doesn't particularly like the federation given his rant about how much harder federation procedure and politics made everything and his belief that all Picard had to do to put a stop to everything was complain to the council I think the Feds would get screwed over.


about a again finite (as in runs out) amount of particles.
You mean like the particles "ran out" while they were in orbit of the ring planet?

Oh, that's right, they didn't.
"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles

sonak wrote: View Post
it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops
Also would enable the Federation to rejuvenate long retired experienced personnel, pull them out of retirement.

Which doesn't help with getting shot or spaced or blown into little pieces

And it doesn't matter if the entire ship wasn't destroyed the poor bastards standing the the section that were still probably got spaced if they were standing in it when the section was destroyed like Kirk was thought to have been in Generations and if not blasted by shrapnel is still a possibility and Riker and Garrett didn't look like they were getting up again in Yesterday's Enterprise after they got hit with it.

So no I don't think magic youth particles mean jack in a war.
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Old February 18 2013, 04:56 PM   #21
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion
This is after the Dominion War ended
So they specifically said when the film takes place, because it could be either way and since the person I am responding to is of the opinion that Insurrection takes place during the war that's why I'm pointing that problem out.



Yes because one group staying on another group's good side when they haven't gotten what they wanted yet an as such still need good relations with the other group to get it really shows how they act after not needing that other group anymore.

News flash you can't say for certain if the Son'a would screw the Feds over or not until they got the particles and considering Ru'afo doesn't particularly like the federation given his rant about how much harder federation procedure and politics made everything and his belief that all Picard had to do to put a stop to everything was complain to the council I think the Feds would get screwed over.




"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles

sonak wrote: View Post
it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops
Also would enable the Federation to rejuvenate long retired experienced personnel, pull them out of retirement.

Which doesn't help with getting shot or spaced or blown into little pieces

And it doesn't matter if the entire ship wasn't destroyed the poor bastards standing the the section that were still probably got spaced if they were standing in it when the section was destroyed like Kirk was thought to have been in Generations and if not blasted by shrapnel is still a possibility and Riker and Garrett didn't look like they were getting up again in Yesterday's Enterprise after they got hit with it.

So no I don't think magic youth particles mean jack in a war.

you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.
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Old February 18 2013, 06:46 PM   #22
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

sonak wrote: View Post
you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.
what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.
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Old February 18 2013, 08:42 PM   #23
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Arguing the "medical benefits" and who ultimately gets them is really sort of pointless They really aren't what this whole thing is about. Whoever ends up with them pretty much wins ... everything. A secret like that doesn't stay a secret for very long--not like it would if it were left on a backwater planet in a remote, inhospitable part of space.

The Son'a wouldn't have to tell the Founders. They'd find out quickly enough on their own, as would the Klingons and the Romulans and the Cardies, and the Breen, and the Tzenkethi, and whoever else is running around out there.

This thing is so big that it's going to be contained to the Alpha either. Queen Steelpants, in her endless pursuit of perfection, will assemble her legion space zombies immediately. The Vidiians? Of course they're going to explore every dubious mean necessary to find a way to the Alpha quadrant.

Hell, let's throw, Vulcans, Andorians, Rigelians, etc. into the mix. Because, let's be honest, when we say "Federation" in this context, we really mean "humans."

And it isn't just about ensuring control over the particles. There's also the matter of the perceived threat they represent. Creating a Khan army is the best case scenario. At worst, we're talking bout creating an entire sub-race of demigods to whom the entire Milky Way (and probably parts of Andromeda) instantly becomes one big sandbox.

Even The Q have to perceive this as a threat. After all, what is omnipotence if not unlimited evolutionary potential over infinite time? These particles solve the time problem, and they take a huge slice (like a few hundred millennia's worth) out of the potential pie.

In the end, we're left with one massive slippery slope that dumps strait into a bottomless quagmire and potentially the utter annihilation of Earth. Uber panaceas would seem pretty pointless then.

To put things into perspective, if some universe-shattering resource were discovered on Earth tomorrow, all economic and military alliances would be completely thrown out the window. Mutually assured nuclear destruction would be rendered meaningless. Basically, we'd be living in one massively fucked-up world. (Hey, I just had a great idea for a novel!)


Anyone who doesn't understand that this scenario is not only plausible, but probable, is being naive and short-sighted. It can happen on modern day Earth, or it can happen in a mythical interstellar future.

Really, the best course of action for all parties would have been to say "Neat!" and turn the fuck around and go home. Contain the Son'a. Want to put the "needs of the many" to good use? Shoot Ru'afo in the face. Gallatin and friends can go home, and the non-Ba'ku Son'a committed enough crimes to have them locked-up in a far-off place forever. Destroy any and all evidence the place ever existed, and hope for the best.
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Old February 18 2013, 08:44 PM   #24
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.
what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.

it will enable soldiers to serve for much longer periods of time. It can heal conditions that might have prevented service before. It can bring back soldiers out of retirement to serve in battle again.

You can continue to bring up all of the scenarios you like in which the particles won't help, but it doesn't change the obvious ways in which they WILL help.

Saying "well they don't cure being vaporized" isn't a serious refutation, because no one is claiming that the particles will help in EVERY scenario that comes up in a war.
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Old February 19 2013, 12:01 AM   #25
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.
what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.

it will enable soldiers to serve for much longer periods of time.
Which doesn't help the federation IN A WAR unless in drags on for decades at which point the quadrant is probably pretty screwed what with wrecked planets and destroyed fleets and space stations all over the place.

It can heal conditions that might have prevented service before.
Federation science looked like it could do that just fine. And it can heal major injuries unlike the particles.

It can bring back soldiers out of retirement to serve in battle again.
Wherein they can still be killed by weapons which wars are fought with, so all its doing is letting the federation catch up a little in the war of attrition but not enough to void endless supply of clones and speedy shipyards.

You can continue to bring up all of the scenarios you like in which the particles won't help, but it doesn't change the obvious ways in which they WILL help.
Which doesn't mean a whole lot when the scenarios consist of much of the fighting which if isn't addressed doesn't help the federation to win which means people get to spend their doubled lifespans in Dominion slave camps.

Saying "well they don't cure being vaporized" isn't a serious refutation, because no one is claiming that the particles will help in EVERY scenario that comes up in a war.
No you just treat being vaporized like its no big deal and ignore that increase lifespans and doing what federation science can already largely do aren't a game changer in a conflict where people are blown to bits, shot, spaced, and all other sorts of nasty demises which are the reason war is a nasty thing.
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Old February 19 2013, 12:41 AM   #26
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.

it will enable soldiers to serve for much longer periods of time.
Which doesn't help the federation IN A WAR unless in drags on for decades at which point the quadrant is probably pretty screwed what with wrecked planets and destroyed fleets and space stations all over the place.



Federation science looked like it could do that just fine. And it can heal major injuries unlike the particles.



Wherein they can still be killed by weapons which wars are fought with, so all its doing is letting the federation catch up a little in the war of attrition but not enough to void endless supply of clones and speedy shipyards.

You can continue to bring up all of the scenarios you like in which the particles won't help, but it doesn't change the obvious ways in which they WILL help.
Which doesn't mean a whole lot when the scenarios consist of much of the fighting which if isn't addressed doesn't help the federation to win which means people get to spend their doubled lifespans in Dominion slave camps.

Saying "well they don't cure being vaporized" isn't a serious refutation, because no one is claiming that the particles will help in EVERY scenario that comes up in a war.
No you just treat being vaporized like its no big deal and ignore that increase lifespans and doing what federation science can already largely do aren't a game changer in a conflict where people are blown to bits, shot, spaced, and all other sorts of nasty demises which are the reason war is a nasty thing.

the Federation had no way of knowing at the time of INS that the war was not going to be a long one. Manpower will ALWAYS be important in a war, especially one fought over vast distances and for long periods of time. Continue to pretend that the particles wouldn't have helped as long as you feel like.
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Old February 19 2013, 03:01 AM   #27
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.
The admiral said some of the Son'a couldn't wait for 10 years of normal exposure which would suggest that somehow the particles used with tech would make them work faster and better.
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Old February 19 2013, 03:17 AM   #28
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Riker and Garrett didn't look like they were getting up again
But many people injured like Jadzia Dax could have "gotten up again" with the help of the particles. Jadzia, after being attacked in the Temple, was taken to sick bay alive. Dying subsequently.

Not everyone on Star Trek dies right away. Could the particle help everyone, no. But you can't say that they wouldn't help anyone. This makes them an asset.

"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles
It's difficult to see what your point is here. If the particles have a limited duration, then the environment of the ring planet's system would have been replenishing them in some fashion. Therefor if the particle you have lose effectiveness in time, you simply return to the original source, and get more.

However, if the particle's emissions are perpetual, then the Federation's particles will never "run out."

Remember Hartzilla, the particles didn't run out while in orbit of the ring planet, the last thing anybody would want to do is change the particle's emissions in the process of the harvest. So the particles in orbit, are the particles after harvest.

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Old February 19 2013, 09:57 PM   #29
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
...
While my endgame would be different, I've been preaching exactly what your saying for years now.

Welcome to Galactic Clusterfuck 101.

Let's just say Ru'afo and his buddies wouldn't be going home for quite a while after the project was complete.
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Old February 19 2013, 10:10 PM   #30
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

T'Girl wrote: View Post
"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles
It's difficult to see what your point is here. If the particles have a limited duration, then the environment of the ring planet's system would have been replenishing them in some fashion. Therefor if the particle you have lose effectiveness in time, you simply return to the original source, and get more.

However, if the particle's emissions are perpetual, then the Federation's particles will never "run out."

Remember Hartzilla, the particles didn't run out while in orbit of the ring planet, the last thing anybody would want to do is change the particle's emissions in the process of the harvest. So the particles in orbit, are the particles after harvest.
Again in the simulation it looked like THE. RINGS. WERE. DISINTEGRATING. As in no more rings, as in no more radiation being generated. If there are no new particles being generated because THERE ARE NO RINGS TO GENERATE THEM then that means there is only a limited supply that will eventually run out.
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