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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 16 2013, 01:50 AM   #166
DonIago
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

The Federation that existed at the time of the Cardassian Occupation had different priorities from the Federation that existed at the time of the Dominion War.

That's pretty much what it boils down to.

It doesn't help that the Bajoran government officially welcomed the Cardassians, and by the time the true shape of the Cardassian involvement with Bajor became known the government had been subverted enough that it continued to officially permit the Cardassian presence.
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Old February 16 2013, 02:23 AM   #167
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

sonak wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The main thing that makes no sense is the Federation stepping into this situation at all. The Council should've told Ru'afo and his thugs to fuck off and not be caught anywhere near the Briar Patch, lest a Federation task force forcibly "remove" them. What we got instead was a Federation Council apparently dazzled by promises of immortality sold by one of the slimiest characters (figuratively and literally) ever put to film. It also involves a pretext in which the Federation deliberately violates the Prime Directive in order to benefit Federation citizens, which is one of the things the PD is specifically supposed to prevent.

So, yeah, it doesn't make much sense at all.
Technically, the Federation should've said it wasn't their planet and any interaction should be handled between the S'ona and the Ba'ku.

If its not the Federations planet they have no right restricting who may and may not go there...

exactly. It's once again an example of having it both ways-the Federation had no right to get involved, it's not their planet!

But wait, it IS their planet when it comes to defending the Baku. Sorry, doesn't work-if you're going to argue non-interference, it goes both ways.

Also, I find it amazing the UFP would step in to rescue the Baku from a group with good motives for a grudge against them, but WOULDN'T step in to stop mass murder and slavery of the Bajorans.
Bajor wasn't in Federation space. The Ba'ku are. If they are under attack and ask for help, the Federation have jurisdiction, as well as a moral obligation to step in.

Bajor was annexed by the Cardassian Union and apparently it didn't matter enough to anyone else to stand up to the Cardies over it. You seem surprised the Federation would behave in any way like a political entity, and mind its own business in some cases while meddling in others.
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Old February 16 2013, 02:43 AM   #168
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Technically, the Federation should've said it wasn't their planet and any interaction should be handled between the S'ona and the Ba'ku.

If its not the Federations planet they have no right restricting who may and may not go there...

exactly. It's once again an example of having it both ways-the Federation had no right to get involved, it's not their planet!

But wait, it IS their planet when it comes to defending the Baku. Sorry, doesn't work-if you're going to argue non-interference, it goes both ways.

Also, I find it amazing the UFP would step in to rescue the Baku from a group with good motives for a grudge against them, but WOULDN'T step in to stop mass murder and slavery of the Bajorans.
Bajor wasn't in Federation space. The Ba'ku are. If they are under attack and ask for help, the Federation have jurisdiction, as well as a moral obligation to step in.

Bajor was annexed by the Cardassian Union and apparently it didn't matter enough to anyone else to stand up to the Cardies over it. You seem surprised the Federation would behave in any way like a political entity, and mind its own business in some cases while meddling in others.

so again, as I wrote, you're trying to have it both ways:

1. the Baku have every right to be there because it's their planet. Find, then they're a sovereign power, and Dougherty can tell the Son'a to do what they'd like.

2. It's in Federation space, but not only does that NOT mean that eminent domain applies, it actually OBLIGATES the UFP to help the Baku!


That's simply ridiculous-pick an argument. Either it's a Federation planet and they can remove the Baku, or the Baku are an independent power, and the Federation can tell them what to go do with themselves.


Finally, I'm not surprised that the UFP would act inconsistently-I'm surprised that slavery and mass murder DON'T serve as a cause for intervention for them, but removal of a small village to benefit billions with a revolutionary medical advance DOES. It's not the inconsistency, it's the wild imbalance in the cause for intervention.
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Old February 16 2013, 02:55 AM   #169
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

sonak wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


exactly. It's once again an example of having it both ways-the Federation had no right to get involved, it's not their planet!

But wait, it IS their planet when it comes to defending the Baku. Sorry, doesn't work-if you're going to argue non-interference, it goes both ways.

Also, I find it amazing the UFP would step in to rescue the Baku from a group with good motives for a grudge against them, but WOULDN'T step in to stop mass murder and slavery of the Bajorans.
Bajor wasn't in Federation space. The Ba'ku are. If they are under attack and ask for help, the Federation have jurisdiction, as well as a moral obligation to step in.

Bajor was annexed by the Cardassian Union and apparently it didn't matter enough to anyone else to stand up to the Cardies over it. You seem surprised the Federation would behave in any way like a political entity, and mind its own business in some cases while meddling in others.

so again, as I wrote, you're trying to have it both ways:

1. the Baku have every right to be there because it's their planet. Find, then they're a sovereign power, and Dougherty can tell the Son'a to do what they'd like.

2. It's in Federation space, but not only does that NOT mean that eminent domain applies, it actually OBLIGATES the UFP to help the Baku!


That's simply ridiculous-pick an argument. Either it's a Federation planet and they can remove the Baku, or the Baku are an independent power, and the Federation can tell them what to go do with themselves.
The Federation has jurisdiction over the planet by virtue of it being within their space. However, that doesn't mean they have the right to relocate the people living on it without their consent. That's not trying to have it both ways, it's the Federation having limits to its power.

Finally, I'm not surprised that the UFP would act inconsistently-I'm surprised that slavery and mass murder DON'T serve as a cause for intervention for them, but removal of a small village to benefit billions with a revolutionary medical advance DOES. It's not the inconsistency, it's the wild imbalance in the cause for intervention.
Had Bajor been in Federation space, they would not have let the Cardassians have it. For that matter, the Federation did fight a lengthy border war with the Cardassians pre-TNG, so who is to say the Federation didn't try to curb Cardassian war crimes?
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Old February 16 2013, 04:14 AM   #170
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post

Bajor wasn't in Federation space. The Ba'ku are. If they are under attack and ask for help, the Federation have jurisdiction, as well as a moral obligation to step in.

Bajor was annexed by the Cardassian Union and apparently it didn't matter enough to anyone else to stand up to the Cardies over it. You seem surprised the Federation would behave in any way like a political entity, and mind its own business in some cases while meddling in others.

so again, as I wrote, you're trying to have it both ways:

1. the Baku have every right to be there because it's their planet. Find, then they're a sovereign power, and Dougherty can tell the Son'a to do what they'd like.

2. It's in Federation space, but not only does that NOT mean that eminent domain applies, it actually OBLIGATES the UFP to help the Baku!


That's simply ridiculous-pick an argument. Either it's a Federation planet and they can remove the Baku, or the Baku are an independent power, and the Federation can tell them what to go do with themselves.
The Federation has jurisdiction over the planet by virtue of it being within their space. However, that doesn't mean they have the right to relocate the people living on it without their consent. That's not trying to have it both ways, it's the Federation having limits to its power.

Finally, I'm not surprised that the UFP would act inconsistently-I'm surprised that slavery and mass murder DON'T serve as a cause for intervention for them, but removal of a small village to benefit billions with a revolutionary medical advance DOES. It's not the inconsistency, it's the wild imbalance in the cause for intervention.
Had Bajor been in Federation space, they would not have let the Cardassians have it. For that matter, the Federation did fight a lengthy border war with the Cardassians pre-TNG, so who is to say the Federation didn't try to curb Cardassian war crimes?

the Federation has jurisdiction, and it's their territory, but they don't have the right to re-locate a small group within their territory for a greater good, but they ARE obligated to defend that group?


so they have all of the responsibilities of protecting this group, yet they have no authority over them, and can't remove them even if 99% of Federation citizens voted to do so?

Why is the Federation in a position where they have all of the responsibilities to the Baku, yet none of the rights as far as governing them? Why would they agree to such a situation?


I could see if it was a mutual defense treaty or something, but the UFP weren't even aware of the Baku's existence and there's no reason to sign such a treaty with the Baku.
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Old February 17 2013, 11:35 PM   #171
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
More importantly, extracting the particles ignores the one giant elephant in the room: it is instantly turned into a finite resource.
This depends on how persistent the particles are. If they are relatively short lived (short half life), then they must be constantly replaced with particles from the ring planet's sun, or from the Brier Patch. Which means in time the ring would be re-established with new particles, and could be harvested over and over again.

On the other hand, if the particles were long lived, then the Federation and the Sona would have the benefit of their medical properties (for hundreds of BILLIONS of people) for thousands, or even millions of years.

Who gets it?
My impression is that the particles harvested from the ring would be divided between the Federation and the Sona, The division wouldn't necessarily have be equal. The particles were the property of the Federation (just like the planet), so maybe the Sona get one percent for their own use, and the Federation gets ninety-nine percent.

I can see the Sona only wanting to treat themselves and not their entire non-Sona population.

Loaded language like "cure for cancer" completely circumvents the fact it will only be a cure for a select number of people
Admiral: "BILLIONS."

How does anyone decide who has a right to it ...
The rest of the Federation's medical technology isn't going to be disappearing. The particle would be used to treat patients with affections currently untreatable. The particles affected the Baku from thousands of miles away in orbit. A small amount of the particles in containers in major cities on various Federation planets could be used to treat the special cases.

You travel to the closest major medical center, and not thousands of light years to a single out of the way planet for treatment.

The only way to prevent this from happing is to, as you say, find a way to replicate it.
We know that there are things that can't be replicated. Medical treatments and drugs seem to be a specific problem

Ultimately, finding a way to extract the medical application of the particles would only be a matter of time, of which, incidentally, any researcher left to his devices on the planet would have an unlimited supply.
Or ... we can harvest the particle right away and distribute them across the Federation. For the immediate relief of people suffering from various aliments.

I'm sure the many BILLIONS of people helped by the particles will understand the relocation of just six hundred people. I know I would.


Last edited by T'Girl; February 18 2013 at 04:18 AM.
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Old February 18 2013, 05:27 AM   #172
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

sonak wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


so again, as I wrote, you're trying to have it both ways:

1. the Baku have every right to be there because it's their planet. Find, then they're a sovereign power, and Dougherty can tell the Son'a to do what they'd like.

2. It's in Federation space, but not only does that NOT mean that eminent domain applies, it actually OBLIGATES the UFP to help the Baku!


That's simply ridiculous-pick an argument. Either it's a Federation planet and they can remove the Baku, or the Baku are an independent power, and the Federation can tell them what to go do with themselves.
The Federation has jurisdiction over the planet by virtue of it being within their space. However, that doesn't mean they have the right to relocate the people living on it without their consent. That's not trying to have it both ways, it's the Federation having limits to its power.

Finally, I'm not surprised that the UFP would act inconsistently-I'm surprised that slavery and mass murder DON'T serve as a cause for intervention for them, but removal of a small village to benefit billions with a revolutionary medical advance DOES. It's not the inconsistency, it's the wild imbalance in the cause for intervention.
Had Bajor been in Federation space, they would not have let the Cardassians have it. For that matter, the Federation did fight a lengthy border war with the Cardassians pre-TNG, so who is to say the Federation didn't try to curb Cardassian war crimes?

the Federation has jurisdiction, and it's their territory, but they don't have the right to re-locate a small group within their territory for a greater good, but they ARE obligated to defend that group?
It's Federation space. Not necessarily a Federation planet over which they have jurisdiction to do as they please. You can understand the distinction between a planet and the space around it, yes?

so they have all of the responsibilities of protecting this group, yet they have no authority over them, and can't remove them even if 99% of Federation citizens voted to do so?
They aren't legally obligated to protect the Ba'ku. I only said they have a moral obligation to if the Ba'ku ask for help, since the Ba'ku are effectively defenseless and the So'na are aggressors who a) are allied with the Dominion and b) have no business in Federation space at all.

Why is the Federation in a position where they have all of the responsibilities to the Baku, yet none of the rights as far as governing them? Why would they agree to such a situation?
They have no legal responsibility to the Ba'ku. You constantly saying that's what I said is a total distortion. The Federation didn't have to "agree" to anything. If they don't want the bother of protecting the Briar Patch, they should let someone else have it.

I could see if it was a mutual defense treaty or something, but the UFP weren't even aware of the Baku's existence and there's no reason to sign such a treaty with the Baku.
Of course, they had no such treaty, nor did anyone suggest anything of the sort. You're simply making things up to turn my argument into something it isn't. Why you would do that, I don't know. Either criticize what I actually said or don't, but don't make shit up.
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Old February 18 2013, 08:15 AM   #173
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

If the Baku apparently lack enough of a sense of morality to be willing to relocate to potentially help billions of people, I can't find it in my heart to condemn the Feds if they're not willing to defend the Baku from hostile powers.
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Old February 18 2013, 08:21 AM   #174
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

DonIago wrote: View Post
If the Baku apparently lack enough of a sense of morality to be willing to relocate to potentially help billions of people, I can't find it in my heart to condemn the Feds if they're not willing to defend the Baku from hostile powers.
Except the Ba'ku were never asked.

And last time I checked the federation had a policy where if the inhabitants of a planet told them to leave and never return they would. There wasn't anything about morality in that.
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Old February 18 2013, 08:27 AM   #175
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

I'm reasonably sure the Baku became aware of the situation at some point during the movie. Surely they were smart enough that they wouldn't need an engraved invitation.

At what point in the movie -was- the Federation asked to leave and never return?
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Old February 18 2013, 08:30 AM   #176
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm reasonably sure the Baku became aware of the situation at some point during the movie.
Yes. It was when someone started kidnapping their children.
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Old February 18 2013, 08:45 AM   #177
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

See, now I'm envisioning the Son'a as pied pipers...
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Old February 18 2013, 08:54 AM   #178
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

You I know we can argue the morality of the federation planning to kidnap the Ba'ku and essentially leave them with nothing you know the whole thing Dougherty was going on about with returning the Ba'ku to their proper course of evolution which still sounds like violating the Prime Directive forever.

But that still doesn't change the fact that only moving a population from a soon to be dying planet when they get something out of it still makes the federation a bunch of douchebags.
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Old February 18 2013, 02:47 PM   #179
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
It's Federation space. Not necessarily a Federation planet over which they have jurisdiction to do as they please. You can understand the distinction between a planet and the space around it, yes?
I can see two problems with this argument:

1) The actual radiation that they plan on collecting is in space. So the radiation does belong to the Federation if the space belongs to the Federation.

2) The Federation "space" argument gives the Federation an incredible amount of power over evolving cultures and who they choose to deal with when they begin exploring the stars.
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Old February 18 2013, 03:07 PM   #180
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
It's Federation space. Not necessarily a Federation planet over which they have jurisdiction to do as they please. You can understand the distinction between a planet and the space around it, yes?
I can see two problems with this argument:

1) The actual radiation that they plan on collecting is in space. So the radiation does belong to the Federation if the space belongs to the Federation.

2) The Federation "space" argument gives the Federation an incredible amount of power over evolving cultures and who they choose to deal with when they begin exploring the stars.
On point 1, the Federation apparently could not collect the radiation without rendering the planet uninhabitable. If they could find a way to collect it without killing the Ba'ku, that might be acceptable. But they certainly couldn't go through with the So'na plan, since that would kill 600 innocent people on the planet.

On point 2, it seems that the Federation routinely protected pre-warp planets within its territory. Once a planet met the criteria for first contact, that would open up the opportunity to discuss the planet's future relationship with the Federation. I suspect if a given species told the Federation to get fucked, the Feds would withdraw from that system and respect their wishes. If the planet was later attacked by a hostile force and asked for help, the Federation would probably come to their rescue.

Basically, the Federation is supposed to be the "good guys." If people want to be left alone, they respect that. If people need help, the Feds are there. If the Federation would like to harvest a resource from a planet within its territory, and it happens to be inhabited, they have to ask. And if those people say "no," the Federation should respect it. Self-determination is supposed to be a big deal to the Federation. It would be pretty crummy of them to simply spit on that concept the moment it becomes inconvenient.
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