I hope for more traditional space battles

[CorporalCaptain]

Saul wrote:

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Caught in a black hole isn't enough then no?

Pretty much all of the angles have been covered as to why not. Read the thread.

[Saul]

Watch the movie. Nero's ship was screwed.

[BillJ]

Saul wrote:

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Watch the movie. Nero's ship was screwed.

So was the Borg Queen yet that didn't stop Picard from snapping her neck. Chang was also screwed yet it didn't stop Kirk and Sulu from pouring it on.

[CorporalCaptain]

Saul wrote:

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Watch the movie.

D'oh! I knew I shouldn't have framed my movie ticket, but I figured that it would be worth more in mint condition rather than torn.

[SeerSGB]

Saul wrote:

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Watch the movie. Nero's ship was screwed.

Nero's ship survived one trip through a blackhole. Damaged or not, there was no way of knowing if it was going to survive a second one. If Nero didn't want saved that was his choice, but they had to be sure that ship was put down for good; it was proven that it was too dangerous to risk the chance that it or any part of its tech would survive.

[Saul]

SeerSGB wrote:

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Nero's ship survived one trip through a blackhole. Damaged or not, there was no way of knowing if it was going to survive a second one. If Nero didn't want saved that was his choice, but they had to be sure that ship was put down for good; it was proven that it was too dangerous to risk the chance that it or any part of its tech would survive.

Well the cases are different. One drop of that red matter could destroy a planet. A whole bunch of that shit went all over the inside of Nero's ship like blood..i mean blueberry juice on white pants. He's wasn't gonna get that stain out. Black holes opening inside a ship surely can't be good.

[SeerSGB]

Saul wrote:

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Well the cases are different. One drop of that red matter could destroy a planet. A whole bunch of that shit went all over the inside of Nero's ship like blood..i mean blueberry juice on white pants. He's wasn't gonna get that stain out. Black holes opening inside a ship surely can't be good.

Again: The heroes have no way of knowing that this will do the trick. What they know his that Nero has a immensely powerful ship that can survive a blackhole. From their POV whose to say the ship can't survive what's happening, even in it's battered condition. It was the proper decision to eliminate the possible future threat of the ship returning.

And it fits just fine with the TOS version of Kirk. He was the man that doomed two worlds to the potential of a interstellar war to save 1 ship. Threw an primitive culture to the wolves by destroying their God--which happened to control the climate of their planet--then leaving. TOS Kirk would have pulled the trigger too.

[BillJ]

SeerSGB wrote:

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TOS Kirk would have pulled the trigger too.

Absolutely.

[UFO]

King Daniel wrote:

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I don't believe Kirk's offer was insincere at all. If it were, he'd not have explained his reasoning to Spock. It was "either surrender, or we will make sure you can't hurt anyone else."

Then why wasn't that line in the movie? Let's just say his offer doesn't fit well with his reaction and flys in the face of past examples.

Set Harth wrote:

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If only Kirk had access to the war excuse. Damn it!
PIKE: You've declared war against the Federation. Withdraw. I'll agree to arrange a conference with Romulan leadership at a neutral location.

The difference being that for nuKirk and Co, the "war" was over. Except for the Borg Queen incident, Picard was in the heat of battle. And the "Borg Queen" looked like a remotely controlled interface for the rest of the collective. She obviously wasn't a drone whose mind was still biological.

BillJ wrote:

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I guess I like having heroes who have human emotions. I'm sure Kirk and Spock got a bit of satisfaction accelerating Nero's trip to the next life. I'm sure Picard got a bit of satisfaction snapping the neck of the remnants of the Borg Queen.
Neither action was likely necessary but very, very human.

I wouldn't concede that both of those two situations are unnecessary. But the solution is easy: arrange matters so the emotional response is part of the battle, not an after match gloat fest. What was Nero supposed to say: "Well played sir, fair cop"?

King Daniel! wrote:

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Even Data fired at Kovis Fajo.

You are not going to suggest he should have used the stun setting are you? If not, I see no problem with his action.

C.E. Evans wrote:

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I thought it blowed up real nicely.

Well it was no Death Star. In fact it really just seemed to crumple up and fade away.

Shazam! wrote:

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People finding the Enterprise blowing up the bad guys and saving the day to be a bad aspect of the movie are strange and weird.

I can't recall anyone arguing for that. Blowing up the bad guys after they had saved the day on the other hand ... . As I have said, have a look at TWOK to see how it should have been handled.

SeerSGB wrote:

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Again: The heroes have no way of knowing that this will do the trick. What they know his that Nero has a immensely powerful ship that can survive a blackhole. From their POV whose to say the ship can't survive what's happening, even in it's battered condition. It was the proper decision to eliminate the possible future threat of the ship returning.

Of course they knew the Narada was finished. How is a ship supposed to fly around a singularity when that singularity is positioned inside said ship? Even nuKirk could have worked that out. What he actually said suggested he was well aware of it and he said nothing to the contrary.

And it fits just fine with the TOS version of Kirk. He was the man that doomed two worlds to the potential of a interstellar war to save 1 ship. Threw an primitive culture to the wolves by destroying their God--which happened to control the climate of their planet--then leaving. TOS Kirk would have pulled the trigger too.

No, Kirk believed, rightly as it turned out, that threatening interstellar war was what was needed to stop the perpetual clinical slaughter that was taking place. He was, after all, risking his own life as well. And as we all know Kirk destroyed that culture's "god" to give them back their lives as much as to free himself and his ship. And why would you assume there was no follow up? As a fan of Star Trek do you really believe Kirk was the kind of monster you now find it convenient to portray him as? Might I ask how long you have thought that?

But lets try our best to ignore the barrage of false analogies and concentrate on ones that were legitimately similar, such as when he didn't respond with phasers when the Romulan ship was defenceless in "Balance of Terror" (I note you didn't mention that one). As far as I can recall, in truly similar situations, he didn't "pull the trigger". Heck, until the Klingon commander who ordered the death of his son tried to kill Kirk as well, he was even prepared to save him!

I find it sad that so many seem not to know the kind of person Prime Kirk actually "is", or now feel compelled to paint him in an inaccurate and unfair light. Doesn't that give anyone pause for thought?

[CorporalCaptain]

It's really hard to get to know Kirk Prime after only 79+21+7 episodes and films. If only he had been in The Slaver Weapon.

[SeerSGB]

UFO wrote:

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Then why wasn't that line in the movie? Let's just say his offer doesn't fit well with his reaction and flys in the face of past examples.

The difference being that for nuKirk and Co, the "war" was over. Except for the Borg Queen incident, Picard was in the heat of battle. And the "Borg Queen" looked like a remotely controlled interface for the rest of the collective. She obviously wasn't a drone whose mind was still biological.


I wouldn't concede that both of those two situations are unnecessary. But the solution is easy: arrange matters so the emotional response is part of the battle, not an after match gloat fest. What was Nero supposed to say: "Well played sir, fair cop"?



You are not going to suggest he should have used the stun setting are you? If not, I see no problem with his action.


Well it was no Death Star. In fact it really just seemed to crumple up and fade away.



I can't recall anyone arguing for that. Blowing up the bad guys after they had saved the day on the other hand ... . As I have said, have a look at TWOK to see how it should have been handled.

Of course they knew the Narada was finished. How is a ship supposed to fly around a singularity when that singularity is positioned inside said ship? Even nuKirk could have worked that out. What he actually said suggested he was well aware of it and he said nothing to the contrary.

No, Kirk believed, rightly as it turned out, that threatening interstellar war was what was needed to stop the perpetual clinical slaughter that was taking place. He was, after all, risking his own life as well. And as we all know Kirk destroyed that culture's "god" to give them back their lives as much as to free himself and his ship. And why would you assume there was no follow up? As a fan of Star Trek do you really believe Kirk was the kind of monster you now find it convenient to portray him as? Might I ask how long you have thought that?

But lets try our best to ignore the barrage of false analogies and concentrate on ones that were legitimately similar, such as when he didn't respond with phasers when the Romulan ship was defenceless in "Balance of Terror" (I note you didn't mention that one). As far as I can recall, in truly similar situations, he didn't "pull the trigger". Heck, until the Klingon commander who ordered the death of his son tried to kill Kirk as well, he was even prepared to save him!

I find it sad that so many seem not to know the kind of person Prime Kirk actually "is", or now feel compelled to paint him in an inaccurate and unfair light. Doesn't that give anyone pause for thought?

1) The Romulan ship in Balance of Terror hand't torched dozens of ships and an entire planet. Narda on the other hand had shown she could survive a black hole, not reason to assume she could--in some form--do it again.

2) Show me one episode or movie that followed up on Taste Of Armageddon or The Apple. Not books or comics* once televised or film CANON follow up. We know he didn't follow up on Khan, so it's not out of the realm that he didn't follow up on those to civilizations either.

3) Granted Kirk offered to help Kruge after he tricked Kruge's crew into beaming aboard Enterprise and then blowing up the ship with them on it with no chance to escape a fiery death.

My opinion of Kirk has always been that I like the character, but yeah he's probably got a lot of blood on his hands. He has been shown that when it comes to the Enterprise 400 people matter more than a population of millions or billions.

* The comics did a follow up to The Apple land it was pretty much a two issues of "Kirk mad a big ass mistake and Spock has to clean up his mess". Granted it's not canon, but it just shows that the ideal that Kirk was screwing people over has been around a lot longer than the reboot.

[BillJ]

SeerSGB wrote:

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* The comics did a follow up to The Apple land it was pretty much a two issues of "Kirk mad a big ass mistake and Spock has to clean up his mess". Granted it's not canon, but it just shows that the ideal that Kirk was screwing people over has been around a lot longer than the reboot.

One of my favorite Trek comic stories, ever. I don't even think it counts as "Kirk makes a big mistake" so much as things can easily spin out of control in a way you'd never anticipate.

[SeerSGB]

BillJ wrote:

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One of my favorite Trek comic stories, ever. I don't even think it counts as "Kirk makes a big mistake" so much as things can easily spin out of control in a way you'd never anticipate.

That's what people don't get, being critical of Kirk Prime isn't new. The franchise was doing long before there was a reboot. There's always been a question of whether what he was doing was the right choice in the long run. Fine he saved 400 people but at how much cost of life?

[DalekJim]

The faster Nero was neutralised, the better. The writer's strike rid his character of any sense and Bana's performance was diabolical.

[BillJ]

DalekJim wrote:

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The faster Nero was neutralised, the better. The writer's strike rid his character of any sense and Bana's performance was diabolical.

Bana, much like Hardy, did a solid job with the material he was given.