RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,591
Posts: 5,424,229
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 544
Newest member: Super Scout

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 17 2013, 03:44 AM   #16
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

Christopher wrote: View Post
... The infinitive is not "to go," it is just "go." It is often found without "to," in constructions such as "Can we go to the store?" or "She'll go ape when she hears this." It's a single word that often stands by itself.
...
As I said, the "to" is analogous to the "have" in "have gone" -- a marker that's part of a certain grammatical inflection of a verb. There's no law that says you can't put words between "have" and "gone." "I have occasionally gone to that store" is perfectly valid....
My apologies for the double post; Christopher, you snuck in while I was writing.

There is no infinitive in those examples. Those are merely compound verbs formed with a main verb and an auxiliary. Split those all you want, according to "the rules." ("I will gladly support you.")

But when we write "to + verb," now it's not a verb, now it is an infinitive, a verbal, functions as something else, bla, bla, bla, see post above. I am in full agreement that they should be deemed splittable.

But it is reality that in the past many people deemed it wrong to interrupt the to and the verb. The fact that it was considered wrong is not myth.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com

Last edited by plynch; February 17 2013 at 03:47 AM. Reason: proofreading like a fiend in a post about grammar
plynch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 17 2013, 03:44 AM   #17
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

plynch wrote: View Post
Misplaced modifiers, are another thing, though: often confusing.
So are misplaced commas...

plynch wrote: View Post
There is no infinitive in those examples. Those are merely compound verbs formed with a main verb and an auxiliary. Split those all you want, according to "the rules." ("I will gladly support you.")

But when we write "to + verb," now it's not a verb, now it is an infinitive, a verbal, functions as something else, bla, bla, bla, see post above. I am in full agreement that they should be deemed splittable.
No, that's the full infinitive. The bare infinitive is just "go" or "support" or "ask," the raw, uninflected form of the verb. Look it up -- I did.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 17 2013, 07:32 PM   #18
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

Christopher wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
Misplaced modifiers, are another thing, though: often confusing.
So are misplaced commas...

plynch wrote: View Post
There is no infinitive in those examples. Those are merely compound verbs formed with a main verb and an auxiliary. Split those all you want, according to "the rules." ("I will gladly support you.")

But when we write "to + verb," now it's not a verb, now it is an infinitive, a verbal, functions as something else, bla, bla, bla, see post above. I am in full agreement that they should be deemed splittable.
No, that's the full infinitive. The bare infinitive is just "go" or "support" or "ask," the raw, uninflected form of the verb. Look it up -- I did.
C'mon, man, that's a typo; I'm workin' on an iPad here, show some mercy!
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 17 2013, 09:35 PM   #19
Metryq
Captain
 
Metryq's Avatar
 
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

Verb—that's what happenin'

__________________
"No, I better not look. I just might be in there."
—Foghorn Leghorn, Little Boy Boo
Metryq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17 2013, 09:41 PM   #20
Lonemagpie
Writer
 
Lonemagpie's Avatar
 
Location: Yorkshire
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

That split infinitive... Would be a much fucking better title for a film sequel than "Into Darkness."
__________________
"I got two modes with people- Bite, and Avoid"
Reading: Wolfsangel (MD Lachlan)

Blog- http://lonemagpie.livejournal.com
Lonemagpie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17 2013, 11:01 PM   #21
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

OP's got a point, namely that it was William Shatner who said the monologue, so it had to be tailored to... his 'unique' way of pronouncing words. This is the same guy who can't even say the word 'sabotage' properly, after all.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17 2013, 11:41 PM   #22
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

^Huh? What's pronunciation got to do with word order? And how is Shatner's pronunciation of "to boldly go" in any way unusual?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 12:24 AM   #23
Mr.AtoZ
Lieutenant Commander
 
Mr.AtoZ's Avatar
 
Location: Sarpeidon's past
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

When I was a youthful man, I bore bruised knuckles for my grammatical mistakes. Back in the days when teachers thought that any straying outside the lines meant a life that would generate chaos in society, rather than order, so they fought hard for students to abide by their lofty albeit misguided principles. They can't do this any longer. The power of the teacher has been plundered, all in the name of freedom.

Today, stalwart languages around the world are being frayed at the edges by the burgeoning youth, a group with a buying power that the consumerism machine beckons. Thus, the grammatical mutations made are tolerated and embraced for the profit making hidden agenda. Therefore... the rules really don't matter any longer. If you bastardize the grammar, you can call it "artistic license" and boldly walk away with indignant pride.
Mr.AtoZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 12:38 AM   #24
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

... to boldly walk where indignant pride has gone before.

2. Shatner and his vocal talent could have well pronounced any sensical permutation of the intro.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 02:09 AM   #25
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Huh? What's pronunciation got to do with word order? And how is Shatner's pronunciation of "to boldly go" in any way unusual?
It's not. But lines can be tailored to suit the actors who are saying them. Kirk's preamble was by various accounts one of the last things settled on by the production team in TOS, and a few versions were tested. Shatner is the king of speaking iambic pentameter, and that particular arrangement of the phrase suits both him and his character, Captain James Tiberius Kirk. There's no shame in that whatsoever.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 02:19 AM   #26
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

^But that's not what the word "pronouncing" means. That's intonation, not pronunciation.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 02:22 AM   #27
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

It's whatever's comfortable.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 06:27 AM   #28
JustKate
Rear Admiral
 
JustKate's Avatar
 
Location: Indiana, USA
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

While the pseudo rule about not splitting infinitives was indeed made up by guys who believed Latin was, somehow, the perfect language, it's been propagated by certain English teachers (and yes, I am thinking of you, Mrs. W) who just adore nice, firm, unequivocal rules. And the same people invariably say you shouldn't end sentences with prepositions - and there's no rule against that either. As an editor who has to read a lot of ill-written dreck, I wish they'd concentrate on teaching kids how to write ordinary prose and leave unnecessary complications alone.
JustKate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 04:22 PM   #29
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

As a writer of fiction, I'm often frustrated by copyeditors who place strict adherence to arbitrary and often artificial grammatical rules over good writing -- for instance, replacing a perfectly smooth and euphonious construction with a painfully awkward one just to keep a sentence from ending in a preposition, or harping on a totally imaginary rule (actually just a suggestion some grammarian made that later style guides somehow chose to interpret as an absolute doctrine) about when to use "which" and when to use "that." What particularly bewilders me is when they do it in dialogue passages, as if it were reasonable to expect people to use perfect, formal speech all the time. Sometimes they harp so much on grammatical and structural precision in dialogue that they bulldoze over intentional choices I made to convey character and emotion. It takes a lot of work to fix such "corrections."
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2013, 05:53 PM   #30
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: That split infinitive we all love...

That reminds me of words probably incorrectly attributed to Winston Churchill, noted in the Wikipedia article on hypercorrection:
"This is the kind of tedious nonsense up with which I will not put!"
---

On the question of how the Star Trek prologue was written, there's a Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_n...as_gone_before. I'm not satisfied with the citations in it, though, one of which is a secondary source at http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/infinitives.html. That CBC article, which itself discusses the split infinitive issue, is a good read, but it's not written in a way that makes it unambiguously clear what it's getting from Inside Star Trek. Perhaps someone can confirm that the whole narrative of the evolution of the prologue in the CBC article [beyond just the first draft] comes from Inside Star Trek?

Anyway, if the narrative is accurate, then Shatner's diction had nothing to do with the wording. Roddenberry finalized the wording without Shatner's involvement to beat the deadline to get the opening credits in the can, then dragged Shatner in for the recording at the last minute.

Thinking back, though, I'm not 100% sure that every TOS episode aired besides Where No Man Has Gone Before had the prologue, at least in all their forms. I seem to recall that one or two more of the early episodes aired during syndication didn't have the prologue either. Can anyone help me settle that?
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:51 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.