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Old February 12 2013, 06:23 PM   #16
Markonian
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Add Kyrians and Vaskans from VOY Living Witness. We don't even know whether the planet is called Kyria or Vaska.

Also, does the Rigel system as a whole count?
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Old February 12 2013, 07:58 PM   #17
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Zalkonians. The Enterprise watched (one of) them evolve into a new species, so technically....

Thinking about it, I would like to see a written follow up to this episode.
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Old February 16 2013, 01:26 AM   #18
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

The Koinonians, physical and energy, from TNG "The Bonding"
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Old February 17 2013, 07:16 PM   #19
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

IIRC, the Voyager novel Bless the Beasts deals with this.
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Old February 17 2013, 09:54 PM   #20
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Also, does the Rigel system as a whole count?
Was gonna mention exactly that. How many distinct species are attributed to the system nowadays, besides the canonical "A bit like Vulcans" and "Humans with bad teeth"? How many are explicitly native?

Regarding the Trill, are the hosts native, or merely the first humanoid species to land on the planet and get enslaved by the symbionts...?

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Old February 17 2013, 10:06 PM   #21
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Timo wrote: View Post
Also, does the Rigel system as a whole count?
Was gonna mention exactly that. How many distinct species are attributed to the system nowadays, besides the canonical "A bit like Vulcans" and "Humans with bad teeth"? How many are explicitly native?
The Chelon reptilians seem to be native. The Vulcanoid Rigellians are also canon, in the person of Safranski, presumably another offshoot culture from Vulcan's sunering period, as are the Kaylar. The AU novella "A Less Perfect Union" seems to set a limit: "[T]he Earth government support[ed] the inhabitants of Rigel IV in dominating the Chelon and later they supported the Kaylar in actions against the other two dominant species after peace talks emerged between them as well as the two races getting aggressive over Earth dominating their politics."

Regarding the Trill, are the hosts native, or merely the first humanoid species to land on the planet and get enslaved by the symbionts...?
The Mangels/Martin novella set on Trill implies that the two species have a history going back to prehistory, depicting the first Trill joining to involve a Stone Age Trill humanoid. At the very least, if he was non-native he had no idea how he got there.
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Old February 17 2013, 10:16 PM   #22
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Timo wrote: View Post
Also, does the Rigel system as a whole count?
Was gonna mention exactly that. How many distinct species are attributed to the system nowadays, besides the canonical "A bit like Vulcans" and "Humans with bad teeth"? How many are explicitly native?
Native species? At least four, maybe five, maybe six. Although given the system's youth and possibly artificial nature, I wonder if any are truly native?

Whether the "Bad Teeth Rigelians" (Kaylar, I assume?) are native to the same Rigel as the others is up for debate. A Less Perfect Union suggested they were, at least, but other sources place them at "true" Rigel. Either one seems feasible.

Confirmed as originating at Beta Rigel, the heavily populated Federation system in range of NX-01, we have:

The Vulcanoid Rigelians of canon. They look like Humans, apparently, so Mr. Hengist was apparently of that race (neatly rolling his type of Rigelian and the Vulcanoid species into one). Safranski, too. They're either from IV or V but colonized the other anyway (I think Catalyst of Sorrows has them originating on IV and some migrated to V for political reasons). And they're established on II, I think. A character in Wildfire, and another elsewhere, is said to actually look Vulcan - whether this is another race or a variant of the first one, I don't know. Perhaps we can assume that these Rigellians are descendants of the Arretians, and are a blend of the two Arretian species, with some more Vulcanoid than others externally? The case of Spock seems to hint that Vulcanoid physiology is dominant over base Humanoid.

The yellow, tattooed Rigelians appearing in Enterprise. The Stargazer books and some of the SCE books feature a silver-skinned, red-eyed race of Rigelians, which I choose to picture as a racial variant of the yellow ones (rather than inventing yet another species). Their homeworld is V, I believe (with populations on other worlds, naturally, like II and IV, and with a large population of Vulcanoid Rigelians established on V in turn).

The Chelons, from Rigel III.

An amphibian race (possibly the speckled race seen on Rigel X in Broken Bow), mentioned in Destiny and other places. Maybe from VIII? Apparently less prominent than the Vulcanoids or Tatoo'n'braids races.
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Last edited by Deranged Nasat; February 17 2013 at 10:49 PM.
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Old February 17 2013, 10:38 PM   #23
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

^Where in SCE were Mike Friedman's silver-skinned Rigellians mentioned?

And yes, the ENT Rigelians, the ones with the green-and-black facial markings, are reportedly from Rigel V, according to Memory Alpha.

The canonical Rigellians mentioned in "Journey to Babel" were only said to have blood chemistry similar to that of Vulcans; I've always found it a little odd that people jumped to the conclusion that they were actually Vulcanoid. But they're portrayed inconsistently. Catalyst of Sorrows (which established that they were native to Rigel IV and had a expatriate population on V) says they have a Vulcanoid internal anatomy but look indistinguishable from human (presumably on the assumption that Hengist from "Wolf in the Fold" was a native); but other books say they look just like Vulcans. Cold Equations recently mentioned that Safranski looked like a Vulcan, which I don't recall having previously been established.

As for the Kalar or Kaylar, an IDW comic has portrayed them as being from the same system as the ENT Rigelians. Star Charts claims they're from the "real" Rigel, Beta Orionis, presumably under the assumption that the encounter before "The Cage" was a first contact, but there's no actual evidence of that in the episode. Early Voyages says that Rigel VII was protectionist against alien contacts up until the 2250s, so it could be Beta Rigel VII. And that makes more sense to me, since they were heading to the Vega Colony for medical treatment and repairs after the incident. Vega is nearly 900 light-years from Beta Orionis, but only about 100 ly from Tau-3 Eridani, the star that this map site identifies as "Beta Rigel" (since it's the closest real star in position and type to the conjectual Beta Rigel in Star Charts).

Then again, there are other Federation worlds far closer to Tau-3 Eri than Vega is -- including Earth -- but that can't be helped.

Where was that amphibian race mentioned in Destiny? I've searched my copies of the manuscript files (which I still have from when I needed them to write Greater Than the Sum), but there's nothing of the sort in the drafts I have. Although something could've been added in revisions.

But if you're referring to the yellow-skinned, speckled "Broken Bow" aliens with no noses, I've identified them in A Choice of Futures with the Xarantine, a race mentioned but not seen in other ENT episodes.
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Old February 17 2013, 10:43 PM   #24
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Where in SCE were Mike Friedman's silver-skinned Rigellians mentioned?
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, I'm sure Folanir Pzial of Lovell was described as silver-skinned and red-eyed. I may be wrong here.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Where was that amphibian race mentioned in Destiny? I've searched my copies of the manuscript files (which I still have from when I needed them to write Greater Than the Sum), but there's nothing of the sort in the drafts I have. Although something could've been added in revisions.
One of the admirals talking with Seven in Mere Mortals (I think) is amphibious and Rigelian, but his appearance isn't described in any depth. Admiral Miltakka.

Christopher wrote: View Post
But if you're referring to the yellow-skinned, speckled "Broken Bow" aliens with no noses, I've identified them in A Choice of Futures with the Xarantine, a race mentioned but not seen in other ENT episodes.
Cool, it's great to get confirmation on what the Xarantine look like. Treat them well; they've got about 220 years...
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Old February 17 2013, 11:14 PM   #25
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Where was that amphibian race mentioned in Destiny? I've searched my copies of the manuscript files (which I still have from when I needed them to write Greater Than the Sum), but there's nothing of the sort in the drafts I have. Although something could've been added in revisions.
One of the admirals talking with Seven in Mere Mortals (I think) is amphibious and Rigelian, but his appearance isn't described in any depth. Admiral Miltakka.
Hmm, that scene isn't in the draft I have, but I found it on Google Books. (I have the physical book on my shelf, but I find it's quicker to do a text search with Google Books.) It describes Captain Miltakka as "amphiboid." Now, the Vanguard writers' bible, also by Dave Mack, describes Chelons as amphibious. Yes, they look like turtles and turtles are reptiles, but they are aliens, after all, so that resemblance can be deceptive. So I'd assume that Miltakka is supposed to be a Chelon.

EDIT: Oh, and I searched for references to Ensign Pzial, and while he was mentioned as having bright red eyes, there's no mention of silver skin that I can find.
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Old February 17 2013, 11:31 PM   #26
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Where was that amphibian race mentioned in Destiny? I've searched my copies of the manuscript files (which I still have from when I needed them to write Greater Than the Sum), but there's nothing of the sort in the drafts I have. Although something could've been added in revisions.
One of the admirals talking with Seven in Mere Mortals (I think) is amphibious and Rigelian, but his appearance isn't described in any depth. Admiral Miltakka.
Hmm, that scene isn't in the draft I have, but I found it on Google Books. (I have the physical book on my shelf, but I find it's quicker to do a text search with Google Books.) It describes Captain Miltakka as "amphiboid." Now, the Vanguard writers' bible, also by Dave Mack, describes Chelons as amphibious. Yes, they look like turtles and turtles are reptiles, but they are aliens, after all, so that resemblance can be deceptive. So I'd assume that Miltakka is supposed to be a Chelon.
Ah, okay. Yes, now I think of it, I do recall Chelons being described as amphibian elsewhere. And I suppose Miltakkka sounds like a Chelon name: Rinsit, Kekil, Simmerith, Jetanien, Miltakka...

Okay then, scrap the amphibians as a separate race. They're Chelons.

That leaves us with Chelons, Tatooed Enterprise Rigelians (possibly with silver skinned Rigelians included), Vulcan-looking Vulcanoids and Human-looking Vulcanoids (which may be the same race). And Kaylar, apparently.
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Old February 17 2013, 11:57 PM   #27
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Christopher wrote: View Post
The canonical Rigellians mentioned in "Journey to Babel" were only said to have blood chemistry similar to that of Vulcans; I've always found it a little odd that people jumped to the conclusion that they were actually Vulcanoid. But they're portrayed inconsistently. Catalyst of Sorrows (which established that they were native to Rigel IV and had a expatriate population on V) says they have a Vulcanoid internal anatomy but look indistinguishable from human (presumably on the assumption that Hengist from "Wolf in the Fold" was a native); but other books say they look just like Vulcans. Cold Equations recently mentioned that Safranski looked like a Vulcan, which I don't recall having previously been established.
Going by this transcript of "Journey to Babel", Spock's line is "Rigelian physiology is very similar to Vulcan". It's not just a matter of blood chemistry, but the entire Rigelian organism is similar to the Vulcan. Especially since there were sufficient differences between recently-separated Romulans and Vulcans to complicate Crusher's treatment of a Romulan downed on Galorndon Core a century later, it's not unreasonable to speculate that Rigelians are as roughly closely related to Vulcans as Romulans.

When did this divergence take place? It may be that the Rigelians descend from an Arretian-era population. Looking at Memory Beta's page, it seems that the consensus has been to write the Rigelians as a Vulcanoid population that emigrated from 40 Eridani at roughly the same time as the Rigelians. At least one source suggests that the Vulcanoid emigrants settled on the homeworld of the Kaylars, reducing them to a marginalized population on the fringes of the new Rigelian civilization.
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Old February 18 2013, 12:03 AM   #28
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Going by this transcript of "Journey to Babel", Spock's line is "Rigelian physiology is very similar to Vulcan". It's not just a matter of blood chemistry, but the entire Rigelian organism is similar to the Vulcan.
In DS9, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, Tuvan's Syndrome was said to mostly affect Vulcans, Romulans and Rigelians, so apparently their neurology is essentially Vulcanoid too. So it seems the writers of that episode interpreted the line in JtB as Rigelians (this race of them, anyway) being similar to Vulcans in more than just blood composition.

As for where these Rigelians truly came from, I like to assume Arret is the answer - and the "looks-Human" VS "looks-Vulcan" issue can perhaps be explained as different groups descended from the same biracial population, given that Arretians have been confirmed as two species, one Human-like, one Vulcan-like. But I guess colonists from Vulcan could have settled there too - Catalyst of Sorrows does mention a period of colonization post-Sundering, when Vulcans established themselves on a string of planets along the later Neutral Zone (e.g. Sliwon). So offshoot populations across the Beta Quadrant besides Romulans apparently exist.

Face it, Spock, it's hopeless. The genie's out of the bottle
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Old February 18 2013, 12:09 AM   #29
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
I like to assume Arret is the answer - and the "looks-Human" VS "looks-Vulcan" issue can perhaps be explained as different groups descended from the same biracial population, given that Arretians have been confirmed as two species, one Human-like, one Vulcan-like.
For that matter, maybe the Vulcanoid migrants from 40 Eridani met with the Vulcanoids from Rigel and got along famously. A half-million years of divergence probably wouldn't create two reproductively incompatible species.
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Old February 18 2013, 12:16 AM   #30
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Re: What examples of multiple species from one world are there?

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
I like to assume Arret is the answer - and the "looks-Human" VS "looks-Vulcan" issue can perhaps be explained as different groups descended from the same biracial population, given that Arretians have been confirmed as two species, one Human-like, one Vulcan-like.
For that matter, maybe the Vulcanoid migrants from 40 Eridani met with the Vulcanoids from Rigel and got along famously. A half-million years of divergence probably wouldn't create two reproductively incompatible species.
Yes. If they were more-or-less culturally compatible too, maybe the Rigelian Vulcanoids would even welcome the, er, Minsharan Vulcanoids as a means of boosting their numbers and competing against the tattooed guys and the Chelons (I wonder what sort of racial feuding went on before the establishment of the United Rigel Colonies?)

And of course the RPGs used to suggest Orions were native to Rigel; the modern novel continuity rejects that, but there's still probably a large Orion population (it's a commercially important major trading system near the Orion homeworld; they've probably had tendrils in there for centuries). Plus the human colonists that come with the Federation...Rigel is an interesting place.

Why, oh why, haven't we yet had a series set there?
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