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Old February 15 2013, 10:03 PM   #16
Enterprise is Great
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

UPN wasn't a big fan of Maquis storylines which is why there was little Maquis/Starfleet conflict among Voyager's crew. They probably told the producers not to do Maquis themed episodes.
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Old February 15 2013, 11:23 PM   #17
Lance
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

It seems strange the network didn't step in at the pitch meetings in the very beginning. You know, stop the Maquis from being in the series in the first place.

I think even those of us who like Voyager would agree that the Maquis aspect of the series' format was never well serviced.
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Old February 15 2013, 11:26 PM   #18
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

Conflict would have been interesting but you still have the uselessness of the Maquis agenda waaaay off in the Delta quadrant. That wouldn't have mattered if they'd filled the Maquis ranks with people who would never fit in with Starfleet and then had to do something with them, but we didn't get that.
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Old February 15 2013, 11:32 PM   #19
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

teacake wrote: View Post
Conflict would have been interesting but you still have the uselessness of the Maquis agenda waaaay off in the Delta quadrant.
That's it, right there. That far out, there is no such thing as Maquis, and it would be pointless to argue otherwise. Chakotay's not stupid, he knows that as well as anyone. And the rest of the Maquis would do what he says. If Chakotay doesn't argue, then none of them do, either.

That wouldn't have mattered if they'd filled the Maquis ranks with people who would never fit in with Starfleet and then had to do something with them, but we didn't get that.
Lon Suder? He was obviously not Starfleet material, in fact he freely admitted he joined the Maquis only because he likes to kill.
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Old February 16 2013, 12:01 AM   #20
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

No, however so accurate, that's what Chakotay or B'Elanna said.

Lon Suder was so completely nonplussed by his murder spree, that one, he thought he could just go back to work and two, he probably forgot about it before the blood dried on his hands.

It's like on Tank Girl when that guard told Tank Girl hand cuffed to the wall that she was going to give him a blow job and if he feels any teeth that he was going to use the bowie knife in his right hand to open her neck up... half a second in she's snapped his neck with her legs and she says "What?! What did I do? What did I do?" Because the other guards were upset and pointing guns at her.

(I just had a laughing fit remembering Ice-T claiming to have been reincarnated from a Cop.)

What Suder actually said was "He looked at me funny."

Which is crazy talk.

Until you remember that Suder is a fricking telepath!

Kathryn's overreaction was born of racist ignorance because she can't understand the difference between someone looking at you funny, and someone's bare naked contemptuous soul looking at you funny.

Suder could have defended himself better (premeld) but he though Janeway was too much of an asshole to waste his breath when he COULD SEE INTO HER MIND WITH TOTAL CLARITY TO KNOW SHE HAD PREJUDICIALLY MADE UP HER STEEL TRAP MIND ABOUT HIM... And there was nothing he could do to sway her.
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Old February 16 2013, 12:05 AM   #21
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
What Suder actually said was "He looked at me funny."

Which is crazy talk.

Until you remember that Suder is a fricking telepath!
Suder's telepathy didn't work. He said so. He couldn't even read emotions, let alone actual thoughts - from himself or others.
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Old February 16 2013, 01:17 AM   #22
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

I knew he didn't use his telepathy in the story, but I just assumed the writer randomly picked a species without remembering that the bugger had been telepathic... Suder is mentioned by kashaak in Counterpoint as someone they would like to detain which seems off if he's a telepathic eunuch.

SUDER: I already told you why I killed him, Lieutenant.
TUVOK: You didn't like the way he looked at you.
SUDER: Right.
TUVOK: Just how did he look at you?
SUDER: Like a lot of people in Starfleet do.
TUVOK: So this murder could in fact be explained as an outburst of rage against Starfleet.
SUDER: Look, if that's how you want to look at this.
TUVOK: I want the truth.
SUDER: I don't like Starfleet, I won't deny that, but
TUVOK: Yes?
SUDER: I have killed people who weren't in Starfleet for the same reason. I did not like the way they looked at me. I've thought about killing you, Lieutenant.
TUVOK: In my case, you have a motive. My previous mission as a spy, my role as your accuser. But to my knowledge, Crewman Darwin had done nothing to you.
SUDER: That's true.
TUVOK: Then why chose him as a victim?
SUDER: I don't know.
TUVOK: Do you feel remorse?
SUDER: I don't seem to feel anything at all. Most Betazoids can sense other people's emotions. I can't even sense my own. So what's going to happen to me now?
TUVOK: I'll have to discuss that with the Captain.
SUDER: I know what I'd do if I were her. Guess I'm lucky. The Federation doesn't execute people.
(Tuvok leaves, and almost gets to the turbolift before he turns and goes back again.)
TUVOK: It is important that I understand why you killed Mister Darwin.
SUDER: I wish I could help you, Lieutenant.
TUVOK: You can. And indirectly I may be able to help you as well. Do you know what a mind meld is?
SUDER: It's that Vulcan thing where you grab someone's head.
TUVOK: We would be telepathically linked, exchanging our thoughts. In essence, becoming one mind.
SUDER: One mind? You and me? I wouldn't recommend that, Lieutenant.
TUVOK: It is not without risk, but as a Vulcan I have internal processes that allow me to control violent instincts. I believe I will be able to suppress whatever feelings I draw from you.
SUDER: And how will I be helped by all this?
TUVOK: It is likely that you will gain, at least for a time, some of my self discipline to better control your violent nature.
SUDER: What do I have to do?
TUVOK: Release the forcefield.
(Ayala draws his phaser then releases the cell forcefield. Tuvok enters.)
TUVOK: My mind to your mind. Your thoughts to my thoughts.
Fuck me.

I WAS RIGHT(ish)!

The authors (Sussman and Piller), from the text provided above, thought that Betazoids were ONLY Empaths, and not just telepaths but more impressive telepaths than silly old Vulcans, because all Dee is, is an empath, but Dee is an empath because she's a gimp hobbled by her pathetic human dna. After another generation slumming it with homosapien, Her children with Riker probably won't even be able to talk with their mouths

This entire episode was flawed from the root.

Although after watching all that profiling on Criminal Minds for the last decade, comparing empathic inadequacy with sexual inadequacy is interesting to say the least, but I was already aware that was going on.

On a world of telepaths he had to be over compensating for his deficiencies with reading Micro exspressions (I miss lie to me.) and that Patrick Jane mentalist claptrap, like with how deaf people learn to read lips.
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Old February 16 2013, 01:58 AM   #23
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

Maybe the Maquis were the most boring terrorists ever because of a refusal to portray them as terrorists.

It's absolutely true the Maquis rebellion has no application in the DQ, it's absolutely rational for them to work with the Starfleet crew. But, I would think the 'Stopping at every nebula to do scientific research' and the general self sacrifice on principle would piss them off more than it did.

If it was UPN who prevented them from having conflict between Maquis and Starfleet, maybe I've been too hard on Berman all this years, and I really should be blaming UPN. It sounds like all of Voyager's failures were due to the false assumption that not taking risks out of fear that you might rub people the wrong way would lead to long term higher ratings.
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Old February 16 2013, 02:12 AM   #24
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

How many dozen Cardassian spinal column necklaces do you think Chell has made?
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Old February 16 2013, 02:41 AM   #25
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Suder is mentioned by kashaak in Counterpoint as someone they would like to detain which seems off if he's a telepathic eunuch.
Kashyk might not have known that Suder's telepathy didn't work. Or if Janeway told him, he probably didn't believe her.
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Old February 16 2013, 02:44 AM   #26
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

A dissection of Suders brain could reveal a more efficient method of mentally castrating working telepaths.
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Old February 16 2013, 06:30 AM   #27
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

But if you hate them you don't want to castrate them and let them exist in your society, you want them punished with your ill will.
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Old February 16 2013, 06:40 AM   #28
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

IIRC, Kashyk's race didn't want telepaths living among them at all, they put them in prison camps.
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Old February 16 2013, 06:48 AM   #29
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

I'm sure if the Klan could make black people white skinned, that they would embrace them with open arms... And if Jews convert, accepting Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, that all is forgiven.

That's called logic.
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Old February 16 2013, 06:58 AM   #30
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Re: Why no Maquis flashbacks?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
IIRC, Kashyk's race didn't want telepaths living among them at all, they put them in prison camps.
Because mundanes are their youtube.

Even without a massive evil plot, they're critiquing your entire sexual history in review... And then they start mentally-photshopping your sex exploits on top of the fat guy 2 cubicles over and beam those conflated thought constructs to all their teep buddies.
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