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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 15 2013, 05:26 PM   #151
CorporalClegg
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
If the Ba'ku never got a distress call out to anyone, of course, it's a moot point.
They'd never have to. Any Federation influence aside, Starfleet isn't going to allow a collaborator of its enemy to loiter in an part of space it perceives as its own, no matter how remote or hostile an area it is.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:31 PM   #152
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
If the Ba'ku never got a distress call out to anyone, of course, it's a moot point.
They'd never have to. Any Federation influence aside, Starfleet isn't going to allow a collaborator of its enemy to loiter in an part of space it perceives as its own, no matter how remote or hostile an area it is.
How would Starfleet even know? It's unlikely sensors would be powerful enough to penetrate the Briar Patch from the outside.

The S'ona really screwed up. They should've came in, scooped up the Ba'ku, collected the radiation and left. Starfleet would've likely been none the wiser.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:32 PM   #153
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
The legitimate Klingon government asked for help and the Federation said no.

From The Last Outpost...

DATA: They should add that Starfleet has permitted several civilisations to fall. We have at times allowed the strong and violent to overcome the weak.
There was no ongoing genocide or threat of such during the KCW. It was an internal conflict over political succession. You're acting like it's the same thing. It isn't.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
If the Ba'ku never got a distress call out to anyone, of course, it's a moot point.
They'd never have to. Any Federation influence aside, Starfleet isn't going to allow a collaborator of its enemy to loiter in an part of space it perceives as its own, no matter how remote or hostile an area it is.
Assuming the Feds noticed, given the remoteness of the Briar Patch (and the fact that what goes on in it is not readable by outside sensors.)

Methinks the Federation would be happy to smack around a known Dominion collaborator for picking on the inhabitants of a backwater planet in Federation territory, though!
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Old February 15 2013, 05:36 PM   #154
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
There was no ongoing genocide or threat of such during the KCW. It was an internal conflict over political succession. You're acting like it's the same thing. It isn't.
Nor was there the threat of genocide to the Ba'ku. The S'ona were perfectly happy to scoop them up and move them until Picard got involved.

The quarrel between the S'ona and Ba'ku ended up being about resources, nothing more.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:39 PM   #155
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Well, I always assumed it's how they pinged Dougherty's radar in the first place. He comes over and tells the S'ona to get off his lawn, and they turn around and bribe him with absolute power. Let the cabal begin.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:43 PM   #156
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Well, I always assumed it's how they pinged Dougherty's radar in the first place. He comes over and tells the S'ona to get off his lawn, and they turn around and bribe him with absolute power. Let the cabal begin.
Or they simply sent an envoy to the Federation Council...
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Old February 15 2013, 05:44 PM   #157
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
There was no ongoing genocide or threat of such during the KCW. It was an internal conflict over political succession. You're acting like it's the same thing. It isn't.
Nor was there the threat of genocide to the Ba'ku. The S'ona were perfectly happy to scoop them up and move them until Picard got involved.
That was with Federation involvement and help. I don't think it's safe to assume the So'na would have behaved so "civilly" if they believed they were free to act with impunity. Involving the Federation was a calculated risk to avoid an accidental conflict with the Feds while achieving the same result--and it would have worked, if not for Data's unexpected "malfunction."

Ru'afo clearly had revenge on his mind. Without a Starfleet presence to temper his behavior, I don't see what would've stopped him from simply bombing the Ba'ku village into oblivion, or just starting the metaphasic harvesting process without giving a damn about the Ba'ku. The Feds provided the holoship, after all. The So'na didn't seem to have any other accommodations in mind for the Ba'ku, except (apparently) a makeshift brig/cargo bay.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:51 PM   #158
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Then why even attempt to recover the Ba'ku with transporter tags? If they'd skipped that step, then they would have launched the collector and harvested the radiation...

At the end of the day, its a movie that really makes little sense. Definitely had too many cooks in the kitchen and a weak director who didn't have the balls to ask for a rewrite.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:55 PM   #159
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Ru'afo clearly had revenge on his mind. Without a Starfleet presence to temper his behavior, I don't see what would've stopped him from simply bombing the Ba'ku village into oblivion, or just starting the metaphasic harvesting process without giving a damn about the Ba'ku. The Feds provided the holoship, after all. The So'na didn't seem to have any other accommodations in mind for the Ba'ku, except (apparently) a makeshift brig/cargo bay.
The collector itself is proof enough of that. It wreaks of being one of those overly spiteful doomsday weapons mustache-twirlers are so found of. What good is revenge if it can't be poetic?

The "it's the only way" excuse has always been a hard pill to swallow and seemed a plot convenience at best. This is the Star Trek where the magical aptitude exceeds the combined wizardry of Gandalf, Dumbledore, and Gene Simmons ten-fold.

It makes and breaks planets on a whim. Surely, extracting some uber fairy dust from planetary rings should be child's play.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:58 PM   #160
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

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Then why even attempt to recover the Ba'ku with transporter tags? If they'd skipped that step, then they would have launched the collector and harvested the radiation...
That's what I'm saying. The only reason the So'na involved the Federation at all was because Ru'afo thought that would mitigate any risk of an armed confrontation with them. It's not like he worried about the Ba'ku putting up a fight, since he could just start the harvester and not even care what happened to them.

At the end of the day, its a movie that really makes little sense. Definitely had too many cooks in the kitchen and a weak director who didn't have the balls to ask for a rewrite.
The main thing that makes no sense is the Federation stepping into this situation at all. The Council should've told Ru'afo and his thugs to fuck off and not be caught anywhere near the Briar Patch, lest a Federation task force forcibly "remove" them. What we got instead was a Federation Council apparently dazzled by promises of immortality sold by one of the slimiest characters (figuratively and literally) ever put to film. It also involves a pretext in which the Federation deliberately violates the Prime Directive in order to benefit Federation citizens, which is one of the things the PD is specifically supposed to prevent.

So, yeah, it doesn't make much sense at all.
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Old February 15 2013, 06:04 PM   #161
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The main thing that makes no sense is the Federation stepping into this situation at all. The Council should've told Ru'afo and his thugs to fuck off and not be caught anywhere near the Briar Patch, lest a Federation task force forcibly "remove" them. What we got instead was a Federation Council apparently dazzled by promises of immortality sold by one of the slimiest characters (figuratively and literally) ever put to film. It also involves a pretext in which the Federation deliberately violates the Prime Directive in order to benefit Federation citizens, which is one of the things the PD is specifically supposed to prevent.

So, yeah, it doesn't make much sense at all.
Technically, the Federation should've said it wasn't their planet and any interaction should be handled between the S'ona and the Ba'ku.

If its not the Federations planet they have no right restricting who may and may not go there...
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Old February 15 2013, 07:32 PM   #162
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
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Your argument is essentially that "might makes right."
To a degree it always has. You have to be able to defend your way of life to some degree or else eventually you'll be overrun.
What existential threat was the Federation facing that necessitated relocating the Ba'ku?
If I understood his position, Bill J meant that the Baku couldn't defend their way of life. They hadn't the means.

I don't think he meant the Federation.

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Old February 15 2013, 07:49 PM   #163
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
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Non-interference is the rule unless and until someone asks for help. If the Ba'ku sent out a general distress call while being attacked or forcibly moved by the So'na, the Federation would have more than adequate justification to intervene.
The Federation Council would seem to disagree after refusing to get involved in the Klingon Civil War until outside influence was found.

Since they're the same race and are fighting over resources, I can't see the Prime Directive being interpreted as anything other than "the Ba'ku are on their own".
Them being the same race was not generally known outside the So'na and the Ba'ku.
Actually the Ba'ku weren't aware of who the So'na really were until Picard told them.

The Federation didn't get involved in the Klingon Civil War because it was primarily an issue of political succession
Plus by staying out of it the federation was probably doing Gowron a favor, I mean it kind of looks bad if your installed into power by a Starfleet captain even though your predecessor thought it was a good idea, but having that done and then Starfleet coming in to fight a faction thats against your installment on your behalf just screams Federation puppet government.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Methinks the Federation would be happy to smack around a known Dominion collaborator for picking on the inhabitants of a backwater planet in Federation territory, though!
Hell the Propaganda opportunity alone would probably be worth.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
The "it's the only way" excuse has always been a hard pill to swallow and seemed a plot convenience at best. This is the Star Trek where the magical aptitude exceeds the combined wizardry of Gandalf, Dumbledore, and Gene Simmons ten-fold.

It makes and breaks planets on a whim. Surely, extracting some uber fairy dust from planetary rings should be child's play.
Hell they could probably replicate the radiation particles if given a couple of months to study it maybe a few years tops. I mean these are the people who once invented a device makes freaking planets from nebulas and it wasn't even designed to do that (which is probably the real reason said planet exploded). Not to mention they already figured out ho to make the transporter de-age and re-age people under certain circumstances so making a fountain of youth should be a freaking cakewalk.
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Old February 15 2013, 08:08 PM   #164
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

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Hell they could probably replicate the radiation particles if given a couple of months to study it maybe a few years tops. I mean these are the people who once invented a device makes freaking planets from nebulas and it wasn't even designed to do that (which is probably the real reason said planet exploded). Not to mention they already figured out ho to make the transporter de-age and re-age people under certain circumstances so making a fountain of youth should be a freaking cakewalk.
More importantly, extracting the particles ignores the one giant elephant in the room: it is instantly turned into a finite resource.

Who gets it?

Loaded language like "cure for cancer" completely circumvents the fact it will only be a cure for a select number of people. Everyone else will have to stick to chemo.

How does anyone decide who has a right to it without creating the timeless segregation of have and have-nots--the fundamental dilemma the Federation was created to eradicate?

The only way to prevent this from happing is to, as you say, find a way to replicate it. So why not just do that on the planet and live and let live?

Ultimately, finding a way to extract the medical application of the particles would only be a matter of time, of which, incidentally, any researcher left to his devices on the planet would have an unlimited supply.
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Old February 16 2013, 01:05 AM   #165
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The main thing that makes no sense is the Federation stepping into this situation at all. The Council should've told Ru'afo and his thugs to fuck off and not be caught anywhere near the Briar Patch, lest a Federation task force forcibly "remove" them. What we got instead was a Federation Council apparently dazzled by promises of immortality sold by one of the slimiest characters (figuratively and literally) ever put to film. It also involves a pretext in which the Federation deliberately violates the Prime Directive in order to benefit Federation citizens, which is one of the things the PD is specifically supposed to prevent.

So, yeah, it doesn't make much sense at all.
Technically, the Federation should've said it wasn't their planet and any interaction should be handled between the S'ona and the Ba'ku.

If its not the Federations planet they have no right restricting who may and may not go there...

exactly. It's once again an example of having it both ways-the Federation had no right to get involved, it's not their planet!

But wait, it IS their planet when it comes to defending the Baku. Sorry, doesn't work-if you're going to argue non-interference, it goes both ways.

Also, I find it amazing the UFP would step in to rescue the Baku from a group with good motives for a grudge against them, but WOULDN'T step in to stop mass murder and slavery of the Bajorans.
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