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Old February 14 2013, 11:49 PM   #61
Pavonis
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Re: Section 31...

The only "operative" of Section 31 that we know of is Sloane. The other two "operatives" that were seen were in the holodeck with Sloane when Bashir penetrated the ruse. They could have been fictional, too, to put Bashir off of attacking Sloane.

The only evidence of Section 31's entire existence is Sloane and his word, which isn't trustworthy. Bashir and Adm. Ross both believed it existed, but again, only Sloane was seen acting as an official representative of this agency.

Frankly, I'm pretty sure Section 31 was nothing more than an elaborate delusion of Sloane's, and that it "died" with him. Alternatively, it was a front for official SF Intelligence actions and operations, with the fictional Section 31 giving Starfleet plausible deniability in all failed operations.
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Old February 15 2013, 12:02 AM   #62
C.E. Evans
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Re: Section 31...

The thing that made me start disliking the concept of Section 31 is the attempt by people to tie everything bad that ever happens in Trek to it. I've seen people speculate that Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway were all secretly working for Section 31 during the various shows; that Section 31 was really responsible for the Xindi attack on Earth; and that Section 31 was really responsible for creating the alternate timeline.
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Old February 15 2013, 12:08 AM   #63
Pavonis
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Re: Section 31...

In-universe, that could work, too.

If everything bad that happens is automatically pinned on Section 31, then how far will individuals go to investigate the matter? If Starfleet Command and Starfleet Intelligence can stonewall with neither confirmations nor denials of a Section 31, then maybe the "agency" has served its purpose....
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Old February 15 2013, 01:32 AM   #64
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
The only "operative" of Section 31 that we know of is Sloane. The other two "operatives" that were seen were in the holodeck with Sloane when Bashir penetrated the ruse. They could have been fictional, too, to put Bashir off of attacking Sloane.
Nope. Agents of Section 31 appeared in the ENT episodes "Affliction," "Divergence," and "Terra Prime," set over 200 years before DSN. Just as Sloan said in "Inquisition" about Section 31 being centuries old.

Meanwhile, there's also Julian and O'Brien literally entering and reading Sloan's mind, and finding his knowledge about Section 31's operations on various worlds in the episode "Extreme Measures." They literally read his mind and saw that Section 31 exists.

Section 31 is a genuine criminal conspiracy, a cabal within the Federation government.
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Old February 15 2013, 01:41 AM   #65
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
In-universe, that could work, too.

If everything bad that happens is automatically pinned on Section 31, then how far will individuals go to investigate the matter? If Starfleet Command and Starfleet Intelligence can stonewall with neither confirmations nor denials of a Section 31, then maybe the "agency" has served its purpose....
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Old February 15 2013, 02:34 AM   #66
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Re: Section 31...

The first rule of Section 31 is...................well, you all knew that was coming.
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Old February 15 2013, 02:39 AM   #67
Pavonis
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Re: Section 31...

Sci wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
The only "operative" of Section 31 that we know of is Sloane. The other two "operatives" that were seen were in the holodeck with Sloane when Bashir penetrated the ruse. They could have been fictional, too, to put Bashir off of attacking Sloane.
Nope. Agents of Section 31 appeared in the ENT episodes "Affliction," "Divergence," and "Terra Prime," set over 200 years before DSN. Just as Sloan said in "Inquisition" about Section 31 being centuries old.
As I recall, those episodes never used the name Section 31. And why should we think that an Earth organization from the 22nd century is the same as the "agency" that "Luther Sloane" claimed to work for in the 24th century?

Meanwhile, there's also Julian and O'Brien literally entering and reading Sloan's mind, and finding his knowledge about Section 31's operations on various worlds in the episode "Extreme Measures." They literally read his mind and saw that Section 31 exists.
Why should anything in Sloane's mind be considered trustworthy? Was there any independent verification of the "facts" gleaned from Sloane's mind, other than the cure for Odo's disease?

Section 31 is a genuine criminal conspiracy, a cabal within the Federation government.
Absolutely. But probably a criminal conspiracy of one.
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Old February 15 2013, 02:48 AM   #68
Sci
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
The only "operative" of Section 31 that we know of is Sloane. The other two "operatives" that were seen were in the holodeck with Sloane when Bashir penetrated the ruse. They could have been fictional, too, to put Bashir off of attacking Sloane.
Nope. Agents of Section 31 appeared in the ENT episodes "Affliction," "Divergence," and "Terra Prime," set over 200 years before DSN. Just as Sloan said in "Inquisition" about Section 31 being centuries old.
As I recall, those episodes never used the name Section 31.
No, just the exact same uniforms, the exact same operational methods, and allusions to Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter.

And why should we think that an Earth organization from the 22nd century is the same as the "agency" that "Luther Sloane" claimed to work for in the 24th century?
"Section 31 was part of the original Starfleet Charter."

Meanwhile, there's also Julian and O'Brien literally entering and reading Sloan's mind, and finding his knowledge about Section 31's operations on various worlds in the episode "Extreme Measures." They literally read his mind and saw that Section 31 exists.
Why should anything in Sloane's mind be considered trustworthy?
It's awfully hard to present false information when someone can read your mind and knows that you yourself know that information to be true and accurate.

ETA:

We should probably also recall that Admiral Ross admitted to working for Section 31 in "Inter Arma Enim...."
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Old February 15 2013, 03:17 AM   #69
Pavonis
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Re: Section 31...

Bashir admitted to "working" for S31, inasmuch as admitting he was working for/against Sloane, but that isn't sufficient to prove the existence of a larger organization. As I said, Bashir and Ross only worked with Sloane. Was there anyone in S31 other than Sloane? We never saw anyone.

Besides, the idea that S31 could hide for centuries is implausible. The idea that it could've emerged recently in the 24th century is more plausible.
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Old February 15 2013, 04:07 AM   #70
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
The Federation doesn't use prisons except to hold captured criminals prior to treatment. As far as criminal behavior goes, it's treated as a psychiatric disease, and prisoners are "patients", sentenced to rehabilitation therapy. It's likely that Maxwell was sentenced to therapy for 6+ months or so (the same sentence Garak received for attempting genocide against the Founders).

OK, so there are penal colonies, where Tom Paris was serving time, but it makes one wonder whether penal colonies are simply where people stay while they're being treated.

So it's possible that Maxwell would've been released long before the Maquis movement started, but would he have joined after his therapy?
We have no indication that the kind of therapy we saw in Dagger of the Mind is still practiced in the 24th century. Especially given how often we see or hear about people being imprisoned. Tom Paris was doing time at a penal colony and agreed to join Voyager for an early parole. Dr. Bashir's father was sentenced two years at a penal colony for gentically enhancing Julian as a child. Commander Eddington seemed to spend all day in a starbase's brig. As did Quark's cousin Gaila.

It would seem in the 24th century, traditional prison time is the norm again in the Federation, and I doubt a starship captain who launched unprovoked attacks on an ally and killed innocent people serving on said ally's starships would only get a six month sentence.

As I recall, those episodes never used the name Section 31. And why should we think that an Earth organization from the 22nd century is the same as the "agency" that "Luther Sloane" claimed to work for in the 24th century?
Official Paramount production reports confirm that Agent Harris was indeed with Section 31. Aside from the part in the episode where he talks about section 31 of the Starfleet charter, you have Lt. Reed constantly talking about "your section," always with emphasis on section. And like Sci mentioned, they wore the exact same outfits.
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Old February 15 2013, 04:44 AM   #71
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Re: Section 31...

Similar outfits? Then Kirk's Starfleet must be distinct from Picard's or Sisko's, 'cause their outfits are really different.

I could buy that S31 might've been revived by Sloane, but a continuous existence over centuries? I don't buy it.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:02 AM   #72
The Wormhole
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Similar outfits? Then Kirk's Starfleet must be distinct from Picard's or Sisko's, 'cause their outfits are really different.

I could buy that S31 might've been revived by Sloane, but a continuous existence over centuries? I don't buy it.
Except, they're not just similar outfits, they are the exact same.

Besides, the official Paramount word on the matter is that Section 31 is an organization that has existed for 200 years. Hell, the novels have featured Section 31 and there's even indications that it might be featured in the Abramsverse.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:05 AM   #73
Pavonis
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Re: Section 31...

We both know that behind the scenes stuff isn't the same as onscreen material. Canonically, the connection between Harris and Sloane is extremely thin.
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Old February 15 2013, 05:26 AM   #74
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Re: Section 31...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
It would seem in the 24th century, traditional prison time is the norm again in the Federation, and I doubt a starship captain who launched unprovoked attacks on an ally and killed innocent people serving on said ally's starships would only get a six month sentence.
Um, The Cardassians were not the federation's allies. They just had a recent peace treaty with them. I mean hell the Cardassians were rearming for war against them in that episode Maxwell's problem was that he went about dealing with it the wrong way.
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Old February 15 2013, 07:33 AM   #75
Sci
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
We both know that behind the scenes stuff isn't the same as onscreen material. Canonically, the connection between Harris and Sloane is extremely thin.
Oh, come off it. The characters on ENT might as well have turned to the camera and winked every time they called it "your Section."

Section 31 is not just Sloan, and it's been around for a long time. Deal with it.
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