Farscape or Babylon 5?

[Reverend]

Who is EarthGov going to copy next, Caligula?

I can absolutely, 100% guarantee that at no point will anyone in the Earth Alliance emulate Caligula.

If they would just say a line of dialog like "A protest happened in the earth capital today, arguing against the president's new anti-sedition acts", I could atleast accept that this isn't a fairly unbelievable power grab.

There's a very good reason why there's hasn't been a line of dialogue like that. Keep watching.

I don't care about historical parallels or humans always remaking mistakes, anyone with half a brain knows this is isn't right. There is no way people would stand for it. Yes, humans remake mistakes, even big ones, sometimes. But, we do grow a bit. You don't see countries relegalising slavery.

Do you think people in the USSR or Nazi Germany didn't speak out against just this sort of thing? Most were either publicly ridiculed or quietly "disappeared". Most people having witnessed this a few times learned to stay quiet, keep their heads down and perhaps inform on a neighbour or two to assuage suspicion. Just in case. The average person just tries to get by from day to day. We did after all evolve from socially hierarchical primates. By and large, most people will intellectually go along with the crowd and the crowd (being a big dumb animal) will often follow wherever the alpha leads. You need a *lot* of independently minded people working together to derail that kind of social inertia.

...and as for slavery...you do know it still exists, yes? And not just in the criminal human trafficking sense. Indeed I'm pretty sure in a few countries it's very much still legal. I could be wrong, but I think Sudan might be one of them.

EarthGov hasn't quite crossed the line from believeable to totally stupid, but its getting really close. The political officer herself is like if political BS became sentient and took human form.

That's basically what a political officer is. Remember that people like that were still operating in Russia up until only 20 years ago and I'm pretty sure the Chinese still have them today in some capacity. We're not talking historical precedent here, this is just a fact.

Keep in mind that by this point you've already seen that Clark isn't a one man show. He has a whole support structure within EarthGov before he was even President...and now we know he had a little help getting there from a certain someone and his "associates." Having a least some of Psi Corps in his pocket helps too. There's a lot you can get away with when you have a group of people running around who can transmit information at a glance with no trace, no record. Can alter, erase or create memories--to say nothing of whole fake personalities--from scratch.

Also remember, that for most people, day-to-day life will be largely unaffected, especially when change like this happens gradually.

[Sindatur]

I find it surprising you find the Political situation so hard to believe. Just look at what we've allowed happen in the US since 09-11-01. Our Government hasn't even instituted Draconian measures, and we've allowed our Cell Phones to be tapped and monitored, we've allowed the President to have the power to invade any country at any time (including America) with Drone attacks against a private hit list, including American citizens, that he doesn't have to answer to or justify to anyone. Sure Democrats are comfortable with Pres. Obama having this power, but, they sure wouldn't have liked it if President Romney inherited it. What if Nixon had this kind of unchecked power?

Right after 9/11/01, as a country, we so scared of Al Quaeda, look how overwhelmingly Congress voted approval to invade Iraq, and all the other things, that go against both Left and Right Wing positions that they let go through, overwhelmingly. Our Government has even been heard saying things like "we'll have to pass the Health Care Bill to know what's in it" and "Never let an emergency go to waste" (When referring to always making sure you push your agenda during an emergency) and we the people defend them and make excuses for what "They really meant"

All this without stacking the Government with supporters, without Sedition laws and such that B5 has at this time. With the right creep in office as President, things could get much, much worse.

Look at the folks who watch FOX News and listen to Talk radio how they eat up everything they say, or likewise with MSNBC and CNN who have opposite slants.

[hyzmarca]

It doesn't hurt that most of the kids who are reaching voting age right now remember that time ten years ago when Earth was almost blown up by genocidal aliens.

Earth is a "great power" but the weakest of them. The Centauri would kick their asses. The Minbari already have kicked their asses. They're not even a speed bump to the Vorlons. Isolationism, spying, and extreme military buildup make sense to the person on the street. Political officers aren't a bad idea when a single loose-cannon captain can accidentally get Earth blown up by making one wrong move.

The Earth-Minbari war was started by a single glory-hound officer who chose to disobey orders and then chose to fire on an alien ship without confirming it's intentions. If there had been a political officer onboard it never would have happened.

Sheridan almost started a war with the Centauri at the end of season 2. If the Centauri had pressed the matter, Earth would have been bombarded with asteroids just like Narn was, and humanity would have been enslaved. Playing chicken when you're on equal footing is one thing. Playing chicken when you can't win and the other side knows that you can't win is a whole other level of stupid. Humanity is extremely lucky that the Centauri didn't want to risk extending themselves so far so fast.

Plenty of Clark's decisions make very good sense.

[Lindley]

hyzmarca wrote:

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The Earth-Minbari war was started by

I don't think he's quite gotten to that plot point yet.

[kirk55555]

Dust to Dust - I'm glad Sheridan told off the security guard who was harrasing a guy for sedition. The large number of mindless idiots on the B5 staff need to get put in their place more often. It was neat the see Vir. I liked seeing Koenig again. He's great as Bester. Ivanova's plan for Bester would probably have been the best thing in the long run, too bad sheridan stopped her. That said, using the Minbari telepaths, and making Bester take the supression drugh, was a good alternative. I liked Bester's comment about Talia's "debreifing and dissect....examination" The drug dust is interesting. It seems like a dangerous thing to have around, since I lot of people would probably use it like G'Kar does. I hadn't really thought about narn telepaths, but hearing they were all killed wasn't surprising. I never noticed before that Koenig is pretty short, atleast compared to Garibaldi. Bester and garibaldi's scenes were great. Both the interrogation and catching the drug maker had great moments from both of them.

Londo twisting the facts about the Minbari in Vir's report to fit what he thinks was just like him. G'Kar's attack was pretty freaky. He really messed up Londo. I liked seeing some of Londo's memories. G'Kar in Londo's head was interesting. Seeing into G'Kar's head was also cool. I wonder why Kosh messed with G'Kar. I don't think he really cares what happens to Londo. Still, now that he's had a talk with him, I hope that G'Kar is eventually let into the group. He got off really easily for the attack, though. Sixty days in jail for a drug fueled rampage doesn't seem like much, especially since he attacked the Centauri ambassador (I'd think the centauri would probably do something evil to some Narn civilians as punishment, even though G'Kar didn't kill Londo). Still, I'm not complaining. I don't want G'Kar in jail for too long, it just seems like he got off easily. In the end, of course the Psi Corps were behind the creation of dust. Creating a dangerous drug is just another in the list of evil things the group has done. Overall, I really enjoyed this episode. Bester was great, G'Kar was great. It was very entertaining, and it didn't have too much political stuff (and what it did have was great, sheridan telling off the security guard).

[flavaflav]

'Dust to Dust' is in my top 10 eps, maybe even top 5. Start to finish it's a killer episode. G'Kar's trip reminded me of the first time a did acid. not a good experience.

[Reverend]

The drug dust is interesting. It seems like a dangerous thing to have around, since I lot of people would probably use it like G'Kar does.

They do. If you'll recall the episode opens with a junkie reliving someone else's trauma. It's not a new thing either and has been around for a while. There's mention of dust peddling on the Europa colony when Garibaldi worked there ('Survivors') and there's a scene in the pilot movie (cut from the original broadcast) where someone tries to smuggle dust through customs. Plus of course Franklin ordered the other patient's system tested for traces of dust, so it's something they're very familiar with.

The implication at the end of the episode is that the Psi Corps created it to permanently turn mundanes into telepaths and probably enhance the strength of those already possessing psi abilities. Remember what Ironheart said in 'Mind War' about them using experimental drugs to enhance his talents? The thing is, it doesn't work very well. The effect is temporary and as Bester said, it's never produced a telepath of "acceptable strength." As for why they'd want to turn normals into teeps, well, that should be pretty self evident. By EA law, any human telepath automatically becomes Psi Corps responsibility and the more teeps there are, the less mundanes. The telepaths' main weakness has always been numbers. There's just not enough of them to fight back if suddenly the normals decide to be rid of them once and for all. I suppose in the long run the idea would have been to use it to breed out homo sapiens entierly in favour of homo superior.

Of course the real question you should take away from this episode is how can the human telepath gene be at all compatible with Narn biology?

I look forward to seeing your reactions to the next few epsiodes. Things are about to *really* kick into gear!

Londo twisting the facts about the Minbari in Vir's report to fit what he thinks was just like him.

Not quite. Londo isn't that deluded. He knows full well what the Minbari are about. What he was doing is trying to twist the facts into what he thinks the Royal Court wants to hear. There'll be more on this in an upcoming episode.

[JoeD80]

kirk55555 wrote:

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I wonder why Kosh messed with G'Kar. I don't think he really cares what happens to Londo.

No it didn't have to do with Londo; it's just that the Dust allowed the telepathic communication between G'Kar and Kosh.

[kirk55555]

I know how the contact was possible. I was wondering why Kosh stopped G'Kar's attack on Londo. I mean, it was the right thing to do, but Kosh really isn't out to stop what is, in comparison to the shadows, unimportant. He didn't need to stop G'Kar, but he seemed to do it to put G'kar back on track to go where he's been going, trying to tell people about the shadows by himself (which has been a goal of G'Kar's, but the narn/Centauri conflict has kind of derailed it). I'm wondering if Kosh is trying to turn G'Kar into an ally of the group fighting the shadows, or atleast remind him of whats important. G'Kar knows about the shadows, and was trying to warn people before he lost his position (and mentioned it to the earth rep investigating the footage of the shadows only a few episodes ago). I'm assuming thats also why he gave Garibaldi his book, which has an image of the shadows in it (although I don't know why he didn't just point garibaldi to the page). I'm sure its stuff that will be brought up soon, I was just kind of wondering out loud (well, not actually out loud, but you know what I mean).

[Sindatur]

kirk55555 wrote:

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I know how the contact was possible. I was wondering why Kosh stopped G'Kar's attack on Londo. I mean, it was the right thing to do, but Kosh really isn't out to stop what is, in comparison to the shadows, unimportant. He didn't need to stop G'Kar, but he seemed to do it to put G'kar back on track to go where he's been going, trying to tell people about the shadows by himself (which has been a goal of G'Kar's, but the narn/Centauri conflict has kind of derailed it). I'm wondering if Kosh is trying to turn G'Kar into an ally of the group fighting the shadows, or atleast remind him of whats important. G'Kar knows about the shadows, and was trying to warn people before he lost his position (and mentioned it to the earth rep investigating the footage of the shadows only a few episodes ago). I'm assuming thats also why he gave Garibaldi his book, which has an image of the shadows in it (although I don't know why he didn't just point garibaldi to the page). I'm sure its stuff that will be brought up soon, I was just kind of wondering out loud (well, not actually out loud, but you know what I mean).

Those are good Questions, You will get many of your answers this Season, good job examining things from all 3 sides

[Reverend]

kirk55555 wrote:

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I know how the contact was possible. I was wondering why Kosh stopped G'Kar's attack on Londo. I mean, it was the right thing to do, but Kosh really isn't out to stop what is, in comparison to the shadows, unimportant. He didn't need to stop G'Kar, but he seemed to do it to put G'kar back on track to go where he's been going, trying to tell people about the shadows by himself (which has been a goal of G'Kar's, but the narn/Centauri conflict has kind of derailed it). I'm wondering if Kosh is trying to turn G'Kar into an ally of the group fighting the shadows, or atleast remind him of whats important. G'Kar knows about the shadows, and was trying to warn people before he lost his position (and mentioned it to the earth rep investigating the footage of the shadows only a few episodes ago). I'm assuming thats also why he gave Garibaldi his book, which has an image of the shadows in it (although I don't know why he didn't just point garibaldi to the page). I'm sure its stuff that will be brought up soon, I was just kind of wondering out loud (well, not actually out loud, but you know what I mean).

All good questions....which I choose not to answer.

One small note though: that book G'Kar lent to Garibaldi was the Book of G'Quan and there's a lot more in it than just a few doodles of the Shadows. It's a holy book written by G'Quan himself; one of the Narn's major religious icons/prophets who lived about a thousand years ago and witnessed those events first hand. I think his reasons for lending it had more of a spiritual motivation. G'Kar's already told the council and everyone that would listen that the Shadows were once on Narn, it's not really news.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

All I'm going to cryptically add to these gentlemen is... also, take note the interesting use of appearing as G'Kar's father to G'Kar. What does that say about Kosh and how he thinks of himself in the lives of the people on board B5? If he were to appear in a dreamlike state again, I wonder, would he take the form of a father again...? Hmm...

[Sindatur]

Nagisa Furukawa wrote:

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All I'm going to cryptically add to these gentlemen is... also, take note the interesting use of appearing as G'Kar's father to G'Kar. What does that say about Kosh and how he thinks of himself in the lives of the people on board B5? If he were to appear in a dreamlike state again, I wonder, would he take the form of a father again...? Hmm...

[kirk55555]

I've been trying to watch only about an episode or two a day, because I'll have to wait until March at the earliest before buying Season 4 and I wanted to make the season last longer, but I ended up watching 5 episodes over the last few days. I couldn't stop after getting to Messages from Earth. Things went to hell quickly, and I had to keep watching. I'm going to try to talk about the episodes in a bit less detail then normal to keep this post from becoming an essay (although I don't think I'll succeed), so just because I didn't mention something, doesn't mean I don't remember or don't like it.

Exogenesis - The creature was freaky looking. this whole episode, I kept thinking "The Goa'uld have invaded Babylon 5" Well, ok, maybe the Tok'ra would be more accurate, but it was kind of interesting seeing these aliens since I'm a big SG-1 fan. I wasn't sure what to think of Marcus when he was first introduced, but this episode made him seem more interestingl, and after these five episodes I went from being neutral towards him to liking the character. Overall, this was a good episode.

Messages from Earth - I thought the thug at the beginning using nunchucks was weird, but funny. The doctor's story of the shadows ship on Mars was interesting, although I'm wondering why Garibaldi didn't mention that he saw something like this to sheridan before this woman brought it up. I will say that I really noticed the music this episode. The music is usually good, but this episode it seemed especially noticeable to me, and it was very good. I'm glad that Sheridan finally did something to stop Earth (although a lot more of that is coming). The Night Watch continues to be annoying, although since I've obviously seen the next three episodes, I know they won't be lasted too long on B5. This White Star/Shadows battle was cool. The fact that a living being merges with a shadow ship is interesting. I thought the ships were alive in some way, but I assumed that the ships themselves were the shadows. I guess I was wrong about that. I liked the White Star's escape plan. The martial law thing seems stupid, but as we learn next episode, the president literally has no checks and balances, so he does basically what he wants. Overall, this was a great episode and made me really excited to see what came next.

Point of No Return - I liked the beginning scene where Vir finally loses it with Londo over his report. Like I said about the last episode, the president has no checks and balances. He is pretty much Palpatine at this point. there is no way in hell he actually has the power to dissolve the senate, but he does. He just needs a whiny crybaby to become his apprentice and the force to be Palpatine at this point. Why does the military follow him when he obviously doesn't have the authority to do this? I mean, I don't dislike what is happening now. Its intense, and interesting to see everything go to hell. I just continue to question why no one actually on earth is fighting this. It was cool seeing Majel Barret. Seeing garibaldi confront those nightwatch worms was awesome. The build up to G'Kar's plan was great. I'm glad Zach came to his senses and joined the good guys. I like how they were able to stop the Nightwatch. Those asses were looking pretty untouchable there for awhile, but Sheridan and company brought them down a peg. The words of the former centauri emperor's wife were interesting, although I don't really want to see Vir and Londo be super distrustful of each other, like they were in the last scene of the episode. I hope G'Kar gets to join the group fighting the shadows. This was an awesome episode.

Severed Dreams - I don't have much sympathy for the soldiers who die fighting for Clark. He's obviously gone far outside his powers, so if the good guys have to blow up the earth ships working for Clark, its the fault of the guys loyal to the president. Like Sheridan has pointed out, the soldiers are supposed to be loyal to Earth, not the president. It may suck for Sheridan and the good guys to fight them, but the idiots didn't leave them much choice. At this point, the president is obviously going far outside the law. If they support him, they should be prepared to get killed for their stupidity. I say the same thing about the majority of Earth's citizens. the fact that most of them support martial law (while the colonies see that its evil), and the fact that the soldiers will bomb civilians with no hesitation because they are so loyal to Emperor Palpa...I mean the president, just makes me want to see the Shadows attack earth. If they wipe it out, then a pit of evil will be gone from the universe, and there will still be enough humans in space and on the colonies to continue the species. Hopefully the good guys will let the shadows destroy earth before trying to stop them Delenn made a great speech to the grey council, and I'm glad she got some support. It was interesting to see Sheridan's dad. Sheridan also made a very good speech to the people on B5. The fight scene near the end was awesome, and delenn coming to save the day was cool. I like how she got the earth ships to leave by pointing out that the only human to destroy a minbari ship was on her side. This was another amazing episode. I make fun of what the president has been able to do, but my suspension of disbelief works pretty well with that. I'm really liking everything thats happening.

Ceremonies of Light and Dark - Londo must have gotten his poisoning advice in this episode from Jack Nicholson's Joker. someone better warn Refa not to use any deoderant or shampoo It's cool that Londo has stayed on B5, I thoight that the centuari wouldn't want him to stay since the station declared itself independant from earth. The scarred Nightwatch agent's look reminds me of Popeye. The remaining Nightwatch members are pretty crazy, especially the dismemberment guy. It was pretty funny what Garibaldi did to the computer. I like the scene at the end where he gets so fed up that he just blasts the speaker in the elevator. He's lucky that the computer didn't turn into HAL 9000, although if it had stayed around they'd probably all have wished for an early grave. Oh, look, another situation where giving a comm device to an ambassador would have really helped. Marcus really trashed the bar, I wish we had seen some of it. Lennier was pretty threatening during his talk with Marcus/ I knew he was a fighter, but he looked like he could break Marcus's neck with barely any effort. Lennier's secret wasn't surprising, I'd already guessed that he liked Delenn. I'm glad they got the NW members. Hopefully that ends the NW on B5. Sheridan taking out thew really crazy guy with that hard hitting looking pun ch was great. The confession scene at the end was good (although I'm reserving judgement on the Sheridan/Delenn romance subplot). Now, Delenn has a full set of B5 uniforms The new uniforms are interesting, although I think I like the old ones a bit more. Overall, this was another great episode.

[Takeru]

kirk55555 wrote:

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Delenn made a great speech to the grey council, and I'm glad she got some support.

She got more than some support, she broke the council, it no longer exists, she's pretty much in charge of the majority of the Minbari forces now.