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Old February 14 2013, 01:44 AM   #766
Set Harth
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie



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Old February 14 2013, 03:20 PM   #767
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Takeru wrote: View Post
That's all true but water is still his gimmick, if you don't use it and turn him into another Superman/Wonder Woman type, why use Aquaman at all?
That's why you have Aquaman riding on a kaiju and leading a squadron of Atlantean aircraft.
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Old February 14 2013, 03:33 PM   #768
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

The thing with Aquaman is that I suspect general audiences are, in fact, still going to be impacted by Super Friends or how he's been depicted outside comics on who he is. Ask someone out there about Aquaman and they'll probably say something like, "Doesn't he talk to fish or something?" Not realizing he's the King of Atlantis and has powers and abilities that make him a bit of a badass on land. Hell, even when Smallville introduced him they did it with a heavy taint from Super Friends.

As for my "weight of the past" when it comes to audiences, I think I was misunderstood.

General audiences are afraid to go into movies that may have story behind them they're not familiar with. Many people still will say things like, "I'm not a Star Trek fan but I did like the movie with the whales." Why? Because that's the one movie that was approachable to the most people as it wasn't as bogged down by the genre/setting of Star Trek. All of the TNG movies were made to be as stand-alone as possible to not draw on previous movies, the series, or the current stories on the still-going series. Again, to reach a wider audience.

It's unlikely general audiences would have even bothered with The Avengers if the previous stand-alone movies hadn't been made. Because they would not have known all of the characters in this movie, what they can do, and so forth and simply thought you'd have to be into the comics to "get it."

The individual movies were the way to go because it introduced all of these characters, told audiences who they are, what they can do, and helped to build this "new world." (The MCU.)

If they just went ahead and made a Justice League movie with several DC heroes in it audiences would be intimidated by it. Because aside from Superman and Batman (both of whom are well-known enough that even the most casual of comic book genre fans know who they are) and possibly Wonder Woman people wouldn't know who they are, what they can do, and what their past and motivations are. So either the movie would have to draw from the comics for the pasts -relying on an informed audience to "get it", or bog down the movie with exposition to introduce the characters.

The average person off the street doesn't know that Aquaman is the king of Atlantis and has incredible powers that can match him with Superman or Wonder Woman on land, he's "the guy who talks to fish." Most other DC characters are going to pretty much have the same problems. They need to be introduced in order for a JLA movie to work.

That's why Marvel worked, especially since they used characters who aren't very commonly known to most audiences. Hell, I'm not a Marvel reader so I was a bit uninspired by an Iron Man movie but it was knocked out of the park. My only real exposure to Thor is Norse Myth and the little girl in "Adventures in Babysitting." Another movie that did a real good job of introducing him.

I'm a comic fan and reader, and I really do believe to "do this right" DC needs to introduce their characters in their own movies. Screw comparing it to Marvel. Just doing the team movie alone is going to get them compared to Marvel. Might as well put all of their chips on the table and do what Marvel did rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.

Besides, if they're to do a Justice League movie I'd say Aquaman, Wonder Woman or whoever else they use deserve their own "origin movie."
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Old February 14 2013, 04:19 PM   #769
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The thing with Aquaman is that I suspect general audiences are, in fact, still going to be impacted by Super Friends or how he's been depicted outside comics on who he is.
I really don't think that's true. The last time Super Friends was on television was nearly 30 years ago. The primary target audience for a blockbuster motion picture is males in their teens and twenties, people who weren't even born yet when the show was cancelled. Most of the people these movies are being made for would either never have seen Super Friends or would only have picked up a few memes about it from Cartoon Network promos and Robot Chicken.

In fact, a target audience in their teens and twenties would know Aquaman mainly from his appearances in Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, and Smallville, if they were aware of him at all. And all of those have portrayed him as a powerful and effective character.


General audiences are afraid to go into movies that may have story behind them they're not familiar with.
Since when? That didn't stop Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America from succeeding. It didn't prevent the Bourne movies from succeeding.

I've said it many times -- blanket generalizations about what categories of movie can work and which ones can't are always wrong and misguided, because if it were that simple to predict success and failure, then everyone would know how to make a successful movie and nothing would ever fail. But obviously that's not the way the world works. You can't predict success or failure by category. A movie of any category can succeed if it's done right, or fail if it isn't. Heck, that should be obvious by the vast number of failed copycats of any successful film or TV series. Imitating the category doesn't result in the same success, so the category was not the reason for success or failure.

Blanket generalizations like the ones you're making are just myths that people invent out of a desire to get a handle on how the world works. They want there to be simple, predictable patterns that they can understand. But the fact is, you can't predict what will work, can't lump successes into one easily defined category and failures into another. The success or failure of any given film is going to be the result of any number of factors -- including the skill of the filmmakers, good fortune in casting and actor chemistry, the efficacy of the promotion, the strength or weakness of the competition, and a lot of luck. You just can't generalize, can't predict what's viable and what isn't. The only valid generalization is that any movie of any category has a better chance of success if it's well-written, well-cast, and well-made than if it isn't. But even with the best imaginable talent on a project, it can still fail. And conversely a film that nobody expected to work can be a breakout hit.
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Old February 14 2013, 04:38 PM   #770
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Since when? That didn't stop Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America from succeeding. It didn't prevent the Bourne movies from succeeding.
Those were origin stories. Start with a team movie and there's a LOT you have to explain to people on powers, abilities, personalities, etc. Or just assume the audience knows this and roll with it.

Would pretty much anything RDJ did in Avengers be even half as entertaining with we hadn't already seen his version of Tony Stark and new his personality? Would casual movie-goers now who Iron Man is, what he can do, his past, why he has this suit, etc.? Who Thor is, what he can do and his relationship with Loki? Who Captain America is and how he's displaced out of time by 70 years?

Without their own origin movies the Avengers either would have had to spend a lot of time setting these people up -which it obviously couldn't do as well as individual movies- or just assume the audience knows who they are, what they can do and just go with it.
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Old February 14 2013, 04:39 PM   #771
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Anyone who watches The Big Bang Theory (read: a lot of people) has already been poisoned with the idea that Aquaman sucks because all he does is talks to fish.
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Old February 14 2013, 04:41 PM   #772
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Fist McStrongpunch wrote: View Post
Anyone who watches The Big Bang Theory (read: a lot of people) has already been poisoned with the idea that Aquaman sucks because all he does is talks to fish.
Which, again, largely comes from Super Friends.

Which is odd, you'd think TBB characters would really know about Aquaman and what he can/can't do.
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Old February 14 2013, 04:52 PM   #773
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Would pretty much anything RDJ did in Avengers be even half as entertaining with we hadn't already seen his version of Tony Stark and new his personality?
Of course not. But, then The Avenger was written as a CONTINUATION, not as a beginning.

RDJ was pretty entertaining in his first movie. That didn't require previous knowledge of the character.

If DC goes with the Justice League first, it will be written as an introduction to the characters, with a new audience in mind, not one with 50 years of comic history stuck in their head.


Would casual movie-goers now who Iron Man is, what he can do, his past, why he has this suit, etc.? Who Thor is, what he can do and his relationship with Loki? Who Captain America is and how he's displaced out of time by 70 years?
No. But, then, those issues were taken care of in the previous movies. But, if the Avengers was the first movie, those things... called exposition, would be made clear in the movie itself.

You do realize filmmakers actually think about these things, right? That they take into consideration what people need to know in order to follow the story?


Without their own origin movies the Avengers either would have had to spend a lot of time setting these people up -which it obviously couldn't do as well as individual movies- or just assume the audience knows who they are, what they can do and just go with it.
I would argue they STILL spent a lot of time setting these people up... a good chunk of the movie is getting the team together... introducing everyone. I would argue you didn't need to watch the previous movies to understand what was happening. My wife only saw the first Iron Man movie, she didn't see Thor or Hulk or Captain America--she was able to follow The Avengers just fine. And enjoy it.
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Old February 14 2013, 04:53 PM   #774
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Those were origin stories. Start with a team movie and there's a LOT you have to explain to people on powers, abilities, personalities, etc. Or just assume the audience knows this and roll with it.
The Incredibles was pretty much a team movie and it succeeded. Same with Monsters vs. Aliens -- there were lots of new characters with their own specific origins to introduce, and the movie got it out of the way in a brief, pithy montage. And I've listed a number of non-superhero team movies that succeeded as well.

I don't think origin stories are really all that necessary for every hero. All you have to do is establish a world where superheroes are a fact of life. Even an audience that isn't familiar with the details of every superhero's past is going to know the basic archetypes -- badass-normal vigilante, tech-enhanced genius, superpowered alien, mythological magic-user from a lost civilization, things like that. So those archetypes could be established as easily as Monsters vs. Aliens established its movie-monster archetypes. And it's not as if DC's heroes tend to have backstories as complicated as Marvel's anyway. It wouldn't be that hard to establish the basics of each character's powers and background in a matter of moments, and after that it's simply a matter of building characterizations the same way any ensemble-cast film does.

I can understand trying to explain a film's failure after it's already failed. I cannot understand why you're going to such great lengths to make excuses for the presumed failure of a film that hasn't even been made yet - and that, for all any of us knows, might not even fail at all. Why not just wait and see what actually happens instead of putting so much effort into manufacturing a pessimistic future that might not actually come to pass?
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Old February 14 2013, 05:00 PM   #775
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Christopher wrote: View Post

The Incredibles was pretty much a team movie and it succeeded. Same with Monsters vs. Aliens -- there were lots of new characters with their own specific origins to introduce, and the movie got it out of the way in a brief, pithy montage.
Good examples.
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Old February 14 2013, 05:05 PM   #776
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

If Man of Steel is a hit, I don't see any reason, if they use Henry Cavill's Superman and include a Batman and a Wonder Woman, why the audience would be intimidated by a Justice League movie. It would probably make it a more sure thing if a new Batman was already established also, but, I don't think that's even definitely necessary.
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Old February 14 2013, 05:12 PM   #777
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Who Thor is, what he can do and his relationship with Loki? Who Captain America is and how he's displaced out of time by 70 years?
Weren't both of these basically covered in the film? I haven't seen either Thor or Captain America yet, and I thought I understood the references well enough.
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Old February 14 2013, 05:14 PM   #778
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

Sindatur wrote: View Post
If Man of Steel is a hit, I don't see any reason, if they use Henry Cavill's Superman and include a Batman and a Wonder Woman, why the audience would be intimated by a Justice League movie.
Do you mean intimidated? If so, I agree.

People understand superpowers in broad strokes. Just showing the characters using their superpowers is all the introduction needed.

Also, notice how, of the two breakout characters in The Avengers, Black Widow and Banner, one never had her own movie and the other was played by a new actor, never-before-seen in the part.
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Old February 14 2013, 05:17 PM   #779
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
If Man of Steel is a hit, I don't see any reason, if they use Henry Cavill's Superman and include a Batman and a Wonder Woman, why the audience would be intimated by a Justice League movie.
Do you mean intimidated? If so, I agree.

People understand superpowers in broad strokes. Just showing the characters using their superpowers is all the introduction needed.

Also, notice how, of the two breakout characters in The Avengers, Black Widow and Banner, one never had her own movie and the other was played by a new actor, never-before-seen in the part.
Oops, yea, meant intimidated (Edited post). Damned lazy keyboard leaves letters out all the time
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Old February 14 2013, 05:20 PM   #780
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Re: They are going ahead with a Justice League movie

If it were up to me, I'd just start off with a JL movie in a universe where superheroes are already commonplace and the team is already established -- maybe go the route of many X-Men adaptations where a new team member (Cyborg? Flash? Zatanna?) is the viewpoint character being brought into the team, meeting the other members, and learning the ropes. I don't think you need to worry about the lack of "common origin" if you just set up the universe that way from the start -- the common origin is that they all exist in a universe where superheroes of all stripes and archetypes are everywhere, a mashup world like the ones from Monsters vs. Aliens, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Wreck-it Ralph, and the like where all sorts of diverse characters of a certain type just happen to coexist as a fait accompli. Instead of trying to establish a bunch of individual hero characters whose existence in a fairly normal world needs to be rationalized and justified one by one, you just follow the lead of those movies by establishing the world itself as one where it's natural for such a diverse assortment of fantasy characters to exist. Once the audience accepts that about the world, then it isn't necessary to go to great lengths to justify every individual character's existence, and you can just get on with the story.
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