RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,448
Posts: 5,508,009
Members: 25,131
Currently online: 456
Newest member: xunixan

TrekToday headlines

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 11 2013, 01:07 PM   #241
Squiggy Claus
Rampant Sexist
 
Squiggy Claus's Avatar
 
Location: Up Squiggy's Coal Chute.
View Squiggy Claus's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Squiggy Claus
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
FYI, in the UD, WWPS=What Would Palin Say?
Every sperm is sacred.
__________________
ENOUGH OF THIS TURGID BASH WANKERY!
Squiggy Claus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2013, 08:50 AM   #242
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Nero was certainly capable of hurting Kirk & Co. if, for example, he and his people were beamed aboard with explosive devices they then used to destroy Enterprise.
Nero had already refused the opportunity to implement such plans. What we talking about here is whether Kirk should have just gotten his butt out of Dodge, or waste time petulantly contributing his relatively impotent efforts to the inevitable demise of a defenceless foe. Neither choice is heroic, but I can't see how having Kirk commit a war crime was the way to go. That reminds me, where the hell was McCoy when they needed him? Stuffing round saving people's lives I suppose!

To be honest I have no idea what the writers thought they were trying to achieve with that scene, beyond a "confrontation with evil" or something.

On the other hand the use of the Genesis device to get Prime Kirk off a similar hook was really rather clever. And I just never appreciated that until I saw the ST09 version. I mean, all they needed to do was have the black hole gravity effect kick in fractionally after Nero's refusal.

So close and yet so far.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2013, 01:44 PM   #243
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

You don't appear to be taking into account the frequent attempts by filmmakers to provide the audience with a cathartic experience. Even films that are overtly trying to "make a statement", like Unforgiven, provide a moment of cathartic release (in that particular case, through the very thing the movie spends most of its time criticizing). Trek had no such aspirations, so it's cathartic moment was of a piece with the events depicted. Whether you personally found it agreeable is up to you, of course, but the fact it occurred at all, especially given current social attitudes (something reflected in pop culture all the time), should not be surprising.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2013, 10:47 PM   #244
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Ovation wrote: View Post
You don't appear to be taking into account the frequent attempts by filmmakers to provide the audience with a cathartic experience. Even films that are overtly trying to "make a statement", like Unforgiven, provide a moment of cathartic release (in that particular case, through the very thing the movie spends most of its time criticizing). Trek had no such aspirations, so it's cathartic moment was of a piece with the events depicted. Whether you personally found it agreeable is up to you, of course, but the fact it occurred at all, especially given current social attitudes (something reflected in pop culture all the time), should not be surprising.
I accept you point but I am not protesting the use of a cathartic experience. Merely the poorly thought out circumstances, IMO, of the one employed in ST09. The black hole was giving Nero his comeuppance anyway and that was the result of Spock's actions.

I don't feel it is unreasonable to expect that the way the "heroes" defeat the villain should be, if not completely "honourable", then at least necessary (and the necessity in this case looks less likely of late). It is true that Prime Kirk has played hard ball in the past and I am not criticising that, when it was required.

These kind of problems don't just detract from, but actively oppose the traditional notion of Star Trek (TOS) optimism in my view. Its unfortunate because it doesn't seem like the small change I advocated would effect the movie's bottom line either. I can't see anyone missing Kirk's unfortunate "Me too" moment. Did anyone really miss Kirk not shooting Khan dead in person in TWOK? Later events over-took such potential regret anyway of course.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2013, 11:16 PM   #245
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Well, there are a number of moments in ST09 that I "forgive" as I chalk them up to the writer's strike. I strongly suspect that many of the points (though certainly not all) that rile some people up would have been far less bothersome if the schedule for filming did not overlap the strike the way it did. There were similar issues with a number of film and TV productions back in the late 80s (I believe Trek V was among them, but I'm not up on the details of that period in Hollywood and I'm too lazy to look them up right now).

I don't have trouble with Spock's reaction (his home planet was just destroyed and his mother died in front of him). IF I were inclined to nitpick, I might object to Kirk's actions, but my Star Trek nitpicking days are long gone.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 12:50 AM   #246
Dick_Valentine
Commander
 
Location: Birmingham, UK (Not Alabama)
View Dick_Valentine's Twitter Profile
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Tom Servo wrote: View Post
It's actually funny that this conversation is happening now. My boss was the Visual Effects Supervisor for Nemesis, and I was actually having a conversation about the film the other day with him. When it was brought back to Digital Domain to do the effects, after Blue Sky Studios did Insurrection, he was saying that he actually did want to change a lot of the, I guess I would call,"traditional" aesthetics of certain things. He mentioned changes to the Warp effect, and the transporter effect. They even wanted to have much more elaborate CG camerawork during the battle sequences. Whether or not this would have resulted in a more Abrams style aesthetic I don't know, but it interesting to see what might have been. The producers were evidently very keen of keeping with what had been seen before, so they ended going up with a much more familiar style, but there were a few tweaks they were able to do, such as the slightly different warping effect for the Enterprise.
That's a shame because the TNG-Era "Rubber Band Effect" is my favourite special effect in all of Star Trek and I simply didn't get why they changed it to a slightly lame exhaust gas effect.
What is that gas? Why would the Enterprise suddenly be shooting that stuff out when they hadn't before?

The Rubber Band effect was so great in that it showed that the power involved altered the properties of the ship as it entered subspace, looked great to see that it was so fast even some parts of the ship would be travelling faster than the other half at some points.

A massive shame the decided to jettison that part for Enterprise too, just made the whole thing less dynamic IMO

With the TNG Era it felt like there was a template to the FX that felt great, warp effect, the way the phasers charged before firing etc.
I liked some of the Dynamic angles used in Nemesis in the battles and it was great to finally see The Enterprise unleashing all its firepower at once instead of just one phaser or photon shot at a time, but the style of the fx themselves shouldn't be messed with.
Otherwise you get crazy crap like phasers firing out of the photo torpedo launcher etc
__________________
I don't care what anyone thinks, when I hit the iceberg the iceberg sinks!
Dick_Valentine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 07:25 AM   #247
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Ovation wrote: View Post
I don't have trouble with Spock's reaction (his home planet was just destroyed and his mother died in front of him).
Right, so you are saying he was still "emotionally compromised" and shouldn't have been on duty?

IF I were inclined to nitpick, I might object to Kirk's actions, but my Star Trek nitpicking days are long gone.
Is that even possible?

But I guess you are saying, when it comes to fictional material at least, nothing is important.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 12:19 PM   #248
Cookies and Cake
Admiral
 
Location: North America
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

So it was irresponsible for Kirk and friends to make sure that none of Nero's pals got out of the black hole. With future tech. Hellbent on making trouble. Riiiight.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Cookies and Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 03:25 PM   #249
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Kirk Prime was never confronted with the man who killed his father. Never confronted with a guy who murdered six billion Vulcans.

Kirk Prime did meet the Klingon who murdered his son. He shot him instantly, without a word.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 04:25 PM   #250
anh165
Commander
 
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Lol, listen to these Prime-Berman-era fan boys playing the moral high ground card about nuKirk.

I see clutching at the straws.
anh165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 05:33 PM   #251
Borgminister
Moderator
 
Location: California
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Again with the fanboys.
Borgminister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 06:02 PM   #252
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Rhovanion
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

UFO wrote: View Post
What we talking about here is whether Kirk should have just gotten his butt out of Dodge, or waste time petulantly contributing his relatively impotent efforts to the inevitable demise of a defenceless foe. Neither choice is heroic, but I can't see how having Kirk commit a war crime was the way to go.
I'm not sure how something really counts as a "war crime" if those killed were faced with imminent "inevitable demise" anyway.
__________________
Whatever happens on earth, that up there, that's the endgame.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 06:10 PM   #253
Kruezerman
Fleet Captain
 
Kruezerman's Avatar
 
Location: The corner of San Antonio and a bottle of Fireball
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Kirk Prime was never confronted with the man who killed his father. Never confronted with a guy who murdered six billion Vulcans.

Kirk Prime did meet the Klingon who murdered his son. He shot him instantly, without a word.
Picard broke, with his own two hands, the neck of the Borg Queen. He also ordered his crew to fight hand-to-hand against those same Borg.

Earlier he said that a lone drone should be killed. Why? Because he was Borg.

So really, Kirk was vengeful and racist to the point of sitting back and watching the Empire burn and Picard was vengeful and racist to the point where he wanted to commit genocide, with him at the front of the battle if need be.

So nuKirk, compared to these two and from what we've seen so far, is far more compassionate to his enemies than they have ever been.
__________________
I'm not saying it's cold, but I just keyed two cars with my nipples.
Kruezerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 06:52 PM   #254
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

anh165 wrote: View Post
Lol, listen to these Prime-Berman-era fan boys playing the moral high ground card about nuKirk.

I see clutching at the straws.
(emphasis mine)

Even when straws are being clutched at, it ought to be possible to criticize (or even to mock) positions taken and opinions stated without taking a swipe at those who express them, so why not simply leave that part out? It's not necessary and adds nothing useful to the conversation.
__________________
The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but
that the lightning ain't distributed right.
— Mark Twain
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 08:39 PM   #255
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Did anyone define traditional yet? Cause the battles in DS9 were significantly different than STNG, and Enterprise came along in full CGI and further changed the style of ST space battles. STII still has the best space battle in history in it, but of course ST09 brought yet another new style and quite frankly they all work for me..
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.