Uhura replacing McCoy/Bones?

[Pauln6]

I'm surprised that so many people think Uhura had no personality. She had bags of personality. People bang on about one line that was originally written for Janice Rand but forget that in that same episode Uhura was placed in charge of a security team. She was a competent electronic technician, professional, extremely intelligent, spirited, and was not afraid to speak her mind.

I agree that 70% of her appearances were limited cameos but there was an awful lot that Nichelle brought to the role when given other stuff to do.

In the context of the sixties, Uhura was pretty cool. She lost out because they called in Spock to deal with any even slightly sciency communications issues. If Shatner and Nimoy had not hogged most of the limelight, Uhura Prime's skill set would have been plenty broad enough.

[The Stig]

Uhura 'lost out' because the character was written as a glorified extra from the start. Nothing more, nothing less. Nimoy and Shatner's egos had nothing to do with it.

[Pauln6]

The Stig wrote:

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Uhura 'lost out' because the character was written as a glorified extra from the start. Nothing more, nothing less. Nimoy and Shatner's egos had nothing to do with it.

Not quite. Grace Lee Whitney was the female lead but Uhura had a few character moments in Charlie X, the Man Trap, and the Naked Time. There was more of an ensemble feel to a fair few of the early episodes.

When they switched down a gear she benefitted from the loss of Whitney and joined a handful of landing party missions but I agree that most of her appearances involved her sitting in her chair mouthing off a few lines. She's fairly impressive in Mirror Mirror. It would only have taken a few tweaks to a few plots to utilise her far more effectively throughout the series but in the sixties a black woman wasn't going to be put in charge of the ship let alone a landing party.

I do think that the movies did her character no favours though. Her part in STIII was cool but they should have shown how crucial she was to helping the ship escape, scrambling communications and escaping from Starfleet security to seek asylum at the Vulcan Embassy.

[UFO]

The Mirrorball Man wrote:

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The old Uhura had no personality, so you have filled in the blanks in your head and invented some personality traits for her. And now you're disappointed because the character you see on the big screen is not the character you had imagined.

You seem to be confusing lack of screen time with lack of personally, and rather conveniently at that. As Paul6 pointed out, she had her moments. Besides, my view is that the two Uhuras are very different and so far you seem in agreement with that position.

serenitytrek1 wrote:

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...
all you male dominant fan boys...answer an honest question for once.

Who was more deserving to serve on the Enterprise.

Uhura or Jim?

My view is that Jim shouldn't have been on any ship and Uhura should have been on the ship that needed her the most. Though I admit, I have no idea how such assignments are done in a navy, but the idea that the best cadets are automatically put on the best ships seems overly simplistic.

The Stig wrote:

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All the cadets stood and watched as the assignments were handed out. The film is fairly clear on the circumstances, so your supposition isn't really borne out by what we saw on screen.

I don't follow your argument. It seemed to me the ships probably had perhaps half or more of their crew members already assigned, at least the Enterprise appeared to. The cadets seemed like fill ins. Therefore how could any cadet know if their skills were in demand on any particular ship?

Spock was wrong. That's the only reasonable take-away from the scene in question. Uhura worked hard to get a posting on the Enterprise and didn't meekly accept a lesser posting when she knew that she deserved better. That's not a 'hissy-fit,' that's simply being assertive.

Even if Spock was wrong (and it apeared to me his concerns were well founded), Uhura wasn't to know that. Her sense of entitlement only works if there is some school yard type linear relationship between how good you are as a cadet (don't forget) and the quality of the ship you "should" be assigned to. Also: "Temporary assignment". Ie. not the end of the world. Let me rephrase that ... .

Uhura didn't make a scene, she didn't speak rudely or raise her voice. She asked Spock for a word and plead her case passionately. Compare with Kirk, who decided to simply attack Spock during an argument, and it's clear that your objections have far less to do with what Uhura did and far more with her gender.

I don't see how that could be clear since I have never been a fan of nuKirk and have said in the past he did little more than be persistent and lucky (and something of a jerk). But it is interesting you should describe nuUhura as "assertive". I would very much agree, because I have always viewed that word as an attempt to rebranded bad manners. In that scene you could cut Uhura's attitude with a knife. Sure it was controlled but that only made it come a cross as curt and disrespectful to a superior officer.

[The Mirrorball Man]

UFO wrote:

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You seem to be confusing lack of screen time with lack of personally, and rather conveniently at that. As Paul6 pointed out, she had her moments. Besides, my view is that the two Uhuras are very different and so far you seem in agreement with that position.

It's convenient because it happens to be true.

The major difference between the two Uhuras is that the old one was a barely-developed extra and the current Uhura is a full-fledged character with personality traits that go beyond "she's nice" and "she's professional".

[yousirname]

UFO wrote:

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As I have said before (or if not I should have!), if Spock was so concerned about an obvious potential conflict of interest (a bit late btw) he should have excused himself from making Uhura's assignment.

I'm pretty sure their relationship was on the DL at that point, for the very reason that Spock is an instructor and Uhura is a cadet. Spock can't recuse himself from such a decision without revealing the relationship.

Uhura had no right to question her posting. There could easily have been a good reason for placing her on a another ship. Besides, if you start by letting people choose their own favourite billets (no matter how "entitled" and full of their own importance they are), where will it end?

She was the most qualified candidate for the post. That certainly gives her the right to question not receiving the post. If there's a good reason for placing her on another ship (and never mind the counterfactuals: there wasn't), how is she to know that except by questioning it? Them that don't ask don't get.

And I don't see her as 'full of her own importance', just confident, and justifiably so. She's not some random middle-of-the-road cadet; she's the best in her field and she knows she's the best in her field. Just as with Kirk's "I'll do it in three," any 'entitlement' is explicitly shown to be justified.

As for the alleged lack of 'niceness'... I remember Uhura's pithy "Sorry, neither" when Sulu addressed her as 'Fair maiden' in The Naked Time. To me that seems perfectly consistent with Saldana's portrayal. But others are correct to say that there wasn't very much 'Uhura Prime' to base the reinterpretation on.

[SalvorHardin]

yousirname wrote:

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I'm pretty sure their relationship was on the DL at that point, for the very reason that Spock is an instructor and Uhura is a cadet. Spock can't recuse himself from such a decision without revealing the relationship.

Spock said he didn't assign her to the Enterprise because "It was an attempt to avoid the appearance of favoritism"
If people didn't know about the relationship he wouldn't care about that, she would just be the best cadet getting the best assignment based on her skills.

[yousirname]

SalvorHardin wrote:

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Spock said he didn't assign her to the Enterprise because "It was an attempt to avoid the appearance of favoritism"
If people didn't know about the relationship he wouldn't care about that, she would just be the best cadet getting the best assignment based on her skills.

Yeah, I guess I didn't think that through.

[M'Sharak]

serenitytrek1 wrote:

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OMG.....I started this post so people can have an honest discussion of Uhura,the role of women and feminism.However seeing some of the comments here only proves that women still have a long way to.

You were OK, thus far (though I confess to being a little skeptical about how honest a discussion you had in mind when you started this thread.)

However, since I also brought this sort of thing up in another thread this morning:

serenitytrek1 wrote:

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...yet the fan boys are giving Jim a pass...

...all you male dominant fan boys...

However the fanboys hails Jim as their hero...

Shame on you...Hey fanboys go listen to Beyonce's run the world.

As I said in that other thread (and as we both know that I've said to you on more than one occasion before) it ought to be possible to criticize or to mock positions taken or opinions stated without taking swipes at the people who express them. This seeming inability to avoid making things personal has been a recurring problem for you from your earliest posts on this forum, and here's where I draw the line:

Don't do it again.

At all.

Just as you are not your opinion, other people are not theirs. If you continue to be unable to keep people and their opinions separate, then you probably shouldn't be posting on this forum. If you insist upon taking personal swipes at other posters for expressing opinions with which you do not agree, then you need to take that behavior off TrekBBS and post it somewhere else, because here it will henceforth earn you warnings.

I sincerely hope that I have made myself clear.

[Pauln6]

UFO wrote:

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I don't follow your argument. It seemed to me the ships probably had perhaps half or more of their crew members already assigned, at least the Enterprise appeared to. The cadets seemed like fill ins. Therefore how could any cadet know if their skills were in demand on any particular ship?

Even if Spock was wrong (and it apeared to me his concerns were well founded), Uhura wasn't to know that. Her sense of entitlement only works if there is some school yard type linear relationship between how good you are as a cadet (don't forget) and the quality of the ship you "should" be assigned to. Also: "Temporary assignment". Ie. not the end of the world. Let me rephrase that ... .

These are good points. Uhura's concern may have been that she could not show Pike how good she was in the hope of a permanent posting on board his ship.

It may be that the incorrect response was Spock's. He should have said, 'I wanted to avoid the appearance of favouritism but this is only a temporary assignment and rest assured, when we return, Captain Pike [or whoever] will be asked to make a decision on a more permanent posting based on your merits.'

As an aside, it seems very unlikely that captains or their first officers choose their own crew, although it would be possible for them to request that a particular crewman be assigned to their ship. At most, Uhura was hoping to show Pike her worth so that he might request her I suppose. Seems flimsy and indulgent. Overall, the scene was very simplistic and childish in its approach. It doesn't paint Spock, Uhura, or Starfleet in a particularly favourable light.

[M'Sharak]

Pauln6, be careful with your QUOTE tags, etc. when you edit a post in the process of replying. Your post above read as if you were replying to The Mirrorball Man, but none of the quoted material was anything he'd said, and passages originally posted by The Stig had no attribution at all. I've made corrections in the above post and one other so that the tags now accurately reflect what was said by whom.

[Cake]

OldUhura has a personality. She was more of a background character in the past, nevertheless she got over the course of TOS, TAS and some of the old movies more scenes together than NewUhura in the last movie. And I mean scenes, in which she says more than "Hailing frequencies open". I think that was more than enough to get an impression of her personality.

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I much prefer nu-Uhura; Zoe Saldana is both a better actor and more attractive than Nichols.

[yousirname]

^ Agree on the first part, disagree on the second.

[UFO]

The Mirrorball Man wrote:

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It's convenient because it happens to be true.

The major difference between the two Uhuras is that the old one was a barely-developed extra and the current Uhura is a full-fledged character with personality traits that go beyond "she's nice" and "she's professional".

Which would still be a big difference, if it wasn't just a useful assumption.

yousirname wrote:

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She was the most qualified candidate for the post. That certainly gives her the right to question not receiving the post. If there's a good reason for placing her on another ship (and never mind the counterfactuals: there wasn't), how is she to know that except by questioning it? Them that don't ask don't get.

And that's why I allowed that she could have done it in a less "wasn't I all that" and "didn't I do this" fashion. Isn't it possible that the assignment she first got was a better post on a "lesser" ship and thus offered better opportunities for advancement? Maybe cadets should have to work their way up a bit no matter who or how good they are? That's the problem with the younger generation, always wanting to start on the top rung. Why I remember in my day ... .

As for the alleged lack of 'niceness'... I remember Uhura's pithy "Sorry, neither" when Sulu addressed her as 'Fair maiden' in The Naked Time. To me that seems perfectly consistent with Saldana's portrayal. But others are correct to say that there wasn't very much 'Uhura Prime' to base the reinterpretation on.

No body's perfect and that situation probably wouldn't find anyone at their best, But then again, I am not saying old Unhura didn't have a varied personality, unlike some.

Pauln6 wrote:

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These are good points. Uhura's concern may have been that she could not show Pike how good she was in the hope of a permanent posting on board his ship.

That too is a good point. Doubtless she would have hoped to be assigned to the Enterprise. My concern is that she seemed to take it as a foregone conclusion. As you say, I don't know how realistic that is. Now perhaps if I had found it a fun interlude, I wouldn't be so concerned. But:

Overall, the scene was very simplistic and childish in its approach. It doesn't paint Spock, Uhura, or Starfleet in a particularly favourable light.

Indeed and it seems strange Spock should be given that job anyway. Wouldn't someone in personnel be handling it? Did all the first officers assign cadets however they liked or did Spock do it for every ship? Now that would be a conflict of interest!