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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 13 2013, 02:26 PM   #121
BillJ
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post

As the planet is inhabitated by a group of people who aren't members of the Federation it is NOT a Federation planet. No doubt there are plenty of inhabiated planets that fall within Federation space whose inhabitants aren't part of the Federation.
So it's okay if the Romulans, Klingons or Cardassians team-up with the S'ona to extract the meta-phasic particles?
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Old February 13 2013, 07:26 PM   #122
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
If they knew they were warp capable why the need for secrecy, why not just ask the Ba'ku to move?
Oh I agree there, except the baku shouldn't have been "asked," they should have been told to get their shit together, because they were leaving.

If you want to explain the situation ... fine.
If you want to help them in the move ... fine.

But the Baku needed to leave for their own safety, because the ring were going to be harvested. It's like the people living behind that brand new hydroelectric dam, once the area behind that dam begins to fill with water, for their own safety, those people have to leave. One way or the other.

Normally when the government wants the land you own, they have to compensate you. They don't go around stealing it.
Problem there is of course the Baku did not "own" the planet, the Federation did. Even Picard, who was sympathetic to the Baku, stated that it was a Federation planet.

I can easily see the Federation setting the Baku up in some valley on another Federation planet, very similar to the one on the Federation planet they were removed from. Residing in that new valley would not entitle them to ownership of the whole planet upon which the new valley was located. That would be silly.

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Old February 13 2013, 08:59 PM   #123
Robert Maxwell
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

The Council didn't know that Baku were warp-capable. In fact, they were led to believe the Baku were a primitive, pre-warp culture--hence the duckblind mission and worries about the Prime Directive. Once it turned out they were not pre-warp, the PD didn't apply. This was specifically mentioned in the movie.

That the Federation was willing to surreptitiously move a pre-warp culture to another planet is pretty unseemly in itself, though. They weren't willing to move such a culture in order to save them from certain destruction ("Homeward"), but they were willing to forcibly move a pre-warp population to get at a natural resource, Prime Directive be damned. I guess forcibly relocating a planet's population doesn't count as "interference" to Federation bureaucrats.
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Old February 13 2013, 10:23 PM   #124
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
It's not clear if the Baku even thought of the planet as theirs.
They just called it "home" because they're quirky.

And?
And see: Palatine and Israel.


It is much more like the episode Ensigns of Command.
No it's not.

it was a humanitarian move.
In what twisted world is kidnapping "humane"?

The humane thing would have been to turn around and go home.

You're essentially trying to excuse a large force's persecution, subjugation and displacement of a smaller one to gain access to a natural resource. As a society, we don't do that. As a matter of fact, we tend to condemn it.

Trying to justify it by invoking some bastardized interpretation of the Bentham Pannomion holds about as much water as a thimble. Utilitarianism has its place; implying one's claim to absolute power is more significant and essential to anther's by simple arithmetic is not it, especially under the guise of "health benefits."


relocation of a small village to provide a cure for various diseases would only be regarded as "persecution" or "subjugation" by someone unclear on the meaning of those terms.
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Old February 13 2013, 10:56 PM   #125
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post

As the planet is inhabitated by a group of people who aren't members of the Federation it is NOT a Federation planet. No doubt there are plenty of inhabiated planets that fall within Federation space whose inhabitants aren't part of the Federation.
So it's okay if the Romulans, Klingons or Cardassians team-up with the S'ona to extract the meta-phasic particles?
Well they would have to seek Federation approval to traverse Federation Space to travel to that planet, and as soon as they sought it, the first thing that the Federation should do is to send a ship to investigate why they are interested in that planet.
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Old February 13 2013, 11:09 PM   #126
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

sonak wrote: View Post
relocation of a small village to provide a cure for various diseases would only be regarded as "persecution" or "subjugation" by someone unclear on the meaning of those terms.
To subjugate: "Bring under domination or control, esp. by conquest." Kind of like rounding them up at gunpoint, stuffing them into a box, and herding them about the galaxy like cattle.

To persecute: "Subject (someone) to hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of their race or political or religious beliefs." Kind of like depriving a group of people a resource its entire philosophy, culture (See: artwork.), and way of life has become dependent on because of some sense of falsely-justified entitlement.

Try harder next time.

And thanks Google for the assist!
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Old February 13 2013, 11:18 PM   #127
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post

As the planet is inhabitated by a group of people who aren't members of the Federation it is NOT a Federation planet. No doubt there are plenty of inhabiated planets that fall within Federation space whose inhabitants aren't part of the Federation.
So it's okay if the Romulans, Klingons or Cardassians team-up with the S'ona to extract the meta-phasic particles?
Well they would have to seek Federation approval to traverse Federation Space to travel to that planet, and as soon as they sought it, the first thing that the Federation should do is to send a ship to investigate why they are interested in that planet.
If planets that aren't members yet are within the sphere of Federation influence aren't Federation property, there should be more than enough in the way of gaps for other governments ships to make their way to the Briar Patch without passing through systems controlled by the Federation.

You can't have it both ways. Either the planet belongs to the Federation or its fair game for anyone whose interested in the radiation?
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Old February 13 2013, 11:45 PM   #128
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

So what you are basically saying all those inhabited worlds, which fall within Federation space but aren't members for whatever reason. The Federation can just go in and take what they want?
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Old February 13 2013, 11:54 PM   #129
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Aren't precedents wonderful?
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Old February 14 2013, 12:24 AM   #130
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So what you are basically saying all those inhabited worlds, which fall within Federation space but aren't members for whatever reason. The Federation can just go in and take what they want?
Would you expect the Federation to protect them?
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Old February 14 2013, 12:41 AM   #131
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
So what you are basically saying all those inhabited worlds, which fall within Federation space but aren't members for whatever reason. The Federation can just go in and take what they want?
Would you expect the Federation to protect them?
Well they do get uppity about those borders of theirs. You know the ones aggressive empires would have to fly through to get to them. I mean if the Romulans do it their on the fed side of the Neutral Zone which is a freaking declaration of war under the terms of the treaty they signed.
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Old February 14 2013, 04:29 AM   #132
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
relocation of a small village to provide a cure for various diseases would only be regarded as "persecution" or "subjugation" by someone unclear on the meaning of those terms.
To subjugate: "Bring under domination or control, esp. by conquest." Kind of like rounding them up at gunpoint, stuffing them into a box, and herding them about the galaxy like cattle.

To persecute: "Subject (someone) to hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of their race or political or religious beliefs." Kind of like depriving a group of people a resource its entire philosophy, culture (See: artwork.), and way of life has become dependent on because of some sense of falsely-justified entitlement.

Try harder next time.

And thanks Google for the assist!

sorry, neither definition fits. I don't know what cutting and pasting a five-minute internet definition was supposed to prove, but eminent domain does not equal subjugation or persecution, no matter how many times folks here repeat that it does.


the absolutism on display here really amazes me. Ethics stripped of context is meaningless. The Federation is moving a small village to get at a resource that will improve quality of life for billions, and many here are fixated on the(dubious) property claims of the small village.
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Old February 14 2013, 05:36 AM   #133
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

There is just that pesky little thing known as the Prime Directive.

If it is wrong to relocate a group of people to save them, it is wrong to relocate a group of people to get at a resource. You can't have it both ways.
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Old February 14 2013, 08:38 AM   #134
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

As noted in the movie itself, the Prime Directive doesn't apply.
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Old February 14 2013, 11:42 AM   #135
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Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
There is just that pesky little thing known as the Prime Directive.

If it is wrong to relocate a group of people to save them, it is wrong to relocate a group of people to get at a resource. You can't have it both ways.
Most of us here who are for moving the Ba'ku aren't necessarily against saving other cultures in danger if feasible.

Try again?
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