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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 13 2013, 12:01 AM   #31
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

While I didn't think the Klingon heads needed explaining in-universe, I did get a huge nerdgasm from seeing TOS-style Klingons boarding the Enterprise in "Affliction", and enjoyed their explanation for it.

I personally preferred The Final Reflection's idea of the Imperial Race, the Human-fusions and Romulan-fusions - although of course that wouldn't have meshed with what we learned of Klingon cuture in TNG and DS9.
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Old February 13 2013, 02:03 AM   #32
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

King Daniel wrote: View Post
It's worth pointing out that co-writer/producer Roberto Orci is a huge Trekkie. He's such a big fan he has shelves of the novels. Any changes made by in the Trekverse by this lot are, at the very least, informed ones.
I'm not 100 percent sure, but I thought that the novels are not canon. I know how silly it seems to get worked up over Klingon foreheads, so thanks to everyone for indulging me.
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Old February 13 2013, 05:26 AM   #33
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

DavidLeeRoth wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
It's worth pointing out that co-writer/producer Roberto Orci is a huge Trekkie. He's such a big fan he has shelves of the novels. Any changes made by in the Trekverse by this lot are, at the very least, informed ones.
I'm not 100 percent sure, but I thought that the novels are not canon.
They aren't canon, but if a writer decides to take something from them and stick it in a movie then that piece in the film will become canon.

I know how silly it seems to get worked up over Klingon foreheads, so thanks to everyone for indulging me.
It's a Trek BBS board. Nothing is silly here.
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Old February 13 2013, 05:42 AM   #34
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

I read the first couple posts and then skipped to the end so I apologize if this has been addressed.

Am I wrong for just seeing the ridges as something as simple as 'plussing' the characters? Way back when, prosthetics weren't as easily rendered as they are today. Hence brown paint, green paint, blue paint, etc on all the aliens. When I first saw the ridged Klingons in STTMP I didn't once think "How the hell did that happen!!!?" I thought 'COOL!'



Does that make me wrong?
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Old February 13 2013, 10:44 AM   #35
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

DavidLeeRoth wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
It's worth pointing out that co-writer/producer Roberto Orci is a huge Trekkie. He's such a big fan he has shelves of the novels. Any changes made by in the Trekverse by this lot are, at the very least, informed ones.
I'm not 100 percent sure, but I thought that the novels are not canon. I know how silly it seems to get worked up over Klingon foreheads, so thanks to everyone for indulging me.
Canon or not, they're still part of Trek lore. Think of it like a writer of a new Batman movie not just watching prior Batman movies, but reading lots of old Batman comics too. To see the different ways the character and setting have been interpreted over the years. It's the same thing with Trek.
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Old February 13 2013, 02:50 PM   #36
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Then again, the more stories told, the more contradictions. And Trek is a visual fantasy first and foremost: it would be a shame to see an onscreen event derided for failing to comply with offscreen material.

It was said upthread that Romulans in STXI were different from Romulans in TOS. How so? The movie ones had tattoos, but that was about it. Yet here we have a nice example of why novels don't really warrant the attention they get...

...Namely, the graphical novels that are supposed to give us a backstory for the movie (the Countdown thing) make the claim that the tattoos are signs of mourning, something Nero's folks did to their crania after losing their homeworld. But that is utterly inconsistent with the movie, where Nero appears on Spock Prime's viewer mere moments after the loss of Romulus, complete with a tattoo! Sure, the graphical storyline offers interesting drama and whatnot, but it cannot take place in the same universe as the movie. Should we dismiss the movie because it fails to comply with the comic? Or should we accept that this fictional universe is inconsistent, that is, poorly put together? Neither sounds like an appealing path to take. OTOH, dismissing the comic is pretty straightforward.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old February 13 2013, 02:57 PM   #37
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Grup wrote: View Post
I read the first couple posts and then skipped to the end so I apologize if this has been addressed.

Am I wrong for just seeing the ridges as something as simple as 'plussing' the characters? Way back when, prosthetics weren't as easily rendered as they are today. Hence brown paint, green paint, blue paint, etc on all the aliens. When I first saw the ridged Klingons in STTMP I didn't once think "How the hell did that happen!!!?" I thought 'COOL!'



Does that make me wrong?
I'm with you.

Having said that, I have no problem with fans who want to find an in-universe reason for the change from TOS to TMP. It can fun to try rationalize those changes with in-universe explanations. However, it also wouldn't be a "mistake" if Abrams decided to go with ridge-headed Klingons.

That would simply mean that the fans' in-universe explanation for smooth-headed versus ridge-headed Klingons would have to be modified to fit this new film -- or those fans could simply do what you and I did and consider the TMP Klingons to have been "plussed" with ridges, and TOS Klingons were retconned to have had ridges (albeit the TOS makeup didn't show it that way, but I have a good imagination).
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Old February 13 2013, 03:24 PM   #38
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Timo wrote: View Post
Then again, the more stories told, the more contradictions. And Trek is a visual fantasy first and foremost: it would be a shame to see an onscreen event derided for failing to comply with offscreen material.
Who's deriding anything? Or saying they should adhere to offscreen material? I merely pointed out my appreciation for those in charge doing their research and looking deeply into the Trek mythos when making their movies. Unlike, say, Rick Berman and Branon Braga, who were on record as having not even seen all of The Original Series before beginning their prequel series Enterprise...
It was said upthread that Romulans in STXI were different from Romulans in TOS. How so? The movie ones had tattoos, but that was about it. Yet here we have a nice example of why novels don't really warrant the attention they get...
What have the novels got to do with Romulan ridges or how the Romulans were depicted in the last movie?
...Namely, the graphical novels that are supposed to give us a backstory for the movie (the Countdown thing) make the claim that the tattoos are signs of mourning, something Nero's folks did to their crania after losing their homeworld. But that is utterly inconsistent with the movie, where Nero appears on Spock Prime's viewer mere moments after the loss of Romulus, complete with a tattoo!
Mere moments in a truncated flashback sequence. That's like saying Spock went from Romulus to Vulcan to Romulus again in mere seconds because thats what we saw in the same meld. Or like saying the first part of "Best of Both Worlds" lasted 20 seconds because that's what the recap at the start of part 2 depicted.
Sure, the graphical storyline offers interesting drama and whatnot, but it cannot take place in the same universe as the movie. Should we dismiss the movie because it fails to comply with the comic? Or should we accept that this fictional universe is inconsistent, that is, poorly put together? Neither sounds like an appealing path to take. OTOH, dismissing the comic is pretty straightforward.
You miss the obvious: Simply accepting that the novels, comics, episodes and films all have their own subtly different ideas about the Trekverse. Trying to lump everything into "right" and "wrong" is an exercise in futility. These are after all, stories intended for entertainment and not historical documents.
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Old February 13 2013, 03:32 PM   #39
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Timo wrote: View Post
Then again, the more stories told, the more contradictions. And Trek is a visual fantasy first and foremost: it would be a shame to see an onscreen event derided for failing to comply with offscreen material.

It was said upthread that Romulans in STXI were different from Romulans in TOS. How so? The movie ones had tattoos, but that was about it. Yet here we have a nice example of why novels don't really warrant the attention they get...

...Namely, the graphical novels that are supposed to give us a backstory for the movie (the Countdown thing) make the claim that the tattoos are signs of mourning, something Nero's folks did to their crania after losing their homeworld. But that is utterly inconsistent with the movie, where Nero appears on Spock Prime's viewer mere moments after the loss of Romulus, complete with a tattoo! Sure, the graphical storyline offers interesting drama and whatnot, but it cannot take place in the same universe as the movie. Should we dismiss the movie because it fails to comply with the comic? Or should we accept that this fictional universe is inconsistent, that is, poorly put together? Neither sounds like an appealing path to take. OTOH, dismissing the comic is pretty straightforward.

Timo Saloniemi
You're right about more contradictions coming in as time goes by. However, you picked a poor example IMO. For one thing, what was seen in the movie of those events were in a mind meld and therefore Spock seeing Nero with the tatoos didn't necessarily happen minutes after the destruction of Romulus. In other words, Spock skipped ahead in time from the destruction of Romulus to him seeing the tatooed Nero. Also, considering the fact that Spock manipulated or at least misled Kirk by implying that bad things would happen if the two Spocks met, it's possible that he left things out of the mind meld and misrepresented others and therefore there are no real contradictions between the movie and Countdown.



As for the topic at hand, there are several canonical explanations. One is, as pointed out by others in this thread, that not all Klingons were infected. The second explanation is suggested by the scientist who helped Phlox cure the disease when he mentioned possibly seeking a career in cranial reconstruction which would suggest the possibility that the ridges we see in the new movie are artificial. The third explanation is that a way to bring back the ridges was found sooner in the alternate reality.
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Old February 13 2013, 03:46 PM   #40
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

thefore Spock seeeing Nero with the tatoos didn't necessarily happen minutes after the destruction of Romulus.
Spock flat out stated that he was intercepted "as [he] began [his] return trip". It would take major effort to invent a reason for him to linger long enough that the events of Countdown, or even the act of tattooing a few foreheads, could take place. Or then we would have to assume that Spock made a deliberate and possibly malicious lie to hide whatever happened at that putative "lost hour" - not a mere simplification of the events.

Sure, Spock can be deceiving the audience. But if we assume he is not, the number of contradictions is actually reduced, in a nice cascade event that eliminates complications: Nero meets Spock right at the shallow tomb of Romulus, which then is also the spot where the supernova blew and was stopped by Spock's red matter, no FTL wave of destruction need be postulated, etc.

On the other hand,

Simply accepting that the novels, comics, episodes and films all have their own subtly different ideas about the Trekverse.
Sure. But Trek in itself doesn't really amount to much. It's the self-consistent fictional reality that it erects that gives it the necessary extra dose of pixie dust. And the episodes and films make for a fairly good fictional reality on their own; the novels do it on their own; but put together, the results are quite abysmal...

The reasons are pretty obvious, too. Aired material is cross-checked to at least some degree when made, partly because it's an expensive endeavor that not only needs the good rep, but can also afford it. Written material is cross-checked on its own. Yet written vs. aired material is only checked in one direction: nobody in the aired side bothers with keeping tabs on everything that happens in the written realm.

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Old February 13 2013, 04:05 PM   #41
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Timo wrote: View Post
no FTL wave of destruction need be postulated, etc.
But Spock still says the supernova threatens the galaxy.
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Old February 13 2013, 04:18 PM   #42
Ketrick
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Timo wrote: View Post
thefore Spock seeeing Nero with the tatoos didn't necessarily happen minutes after the destruction of Romulus.
Spock flat out stated that he was intercepted "as [he] began [his] return trip". It would take major effort to invent a reason for him to linger long enough that the events of Countdown, or even the act of tattooing a few foreheads, could take place. Or then we would have to assume that Spock made a deliberate and possibly malicious lie to hide whatever happened at that putative "lost hour" - not a mere simplification of the events.

Sure, Spock can be deceiving the audience. But if we assume he is not, the number of contradictions is actually reduced, in a nice cascade event that eliminates complications: Nero meets Spock right at the shallow tomb of Romulus, which then is also the spot where the supernova blew and was stopped by Spock's red matter, no FTL wave of destruction need be postulated, etc.

On the other hand,

Simply accepting that the novels, comics, episodes and films all have their own subtly different ideas about the Trekverse.
Sure. But Trek in itself doesn't really amount to much. It's the self-consistent fictional reality that it erects that gives it the necessary extra dose of pixie dust. And the episodes and films make for a fairly good fictional reality on their own; the novels do it on their own; but put together, the results are quite abysmal...

The reasons are pretty obvious, too. Aired material is cross-checked to at least some degree when made, partly because it's an expensive endeavor that not only needs the good rep, but can also afford it. Written material is cross-checked on its own. Yet written vs. aired material is only checked in one direction: nobody in the aired side bothers with keeping tabs on everything that happens in the written realm.

Timo Saloniemi
Uh, you're missing my point. There's no reason not to believe that Romulus was destroyed hours or even days before Spock reached the supernova thereby giving Nero plenty of time while Spock was still en route to the supernova to be tatooed. Remember the events shown in the mind meld aren't being shown in real time.



As for me suggesting Spock Prime left stuff out of the mind meld, I wasn't suggesting it was for some nefarious reason. My thought is he did it to save time and prevent Kirk from asking unnecessary questions. Kirk didn't even really believe Spock was Spock at the point of the mind meld and if Spock related anything resembling what happened in Countdown Kirk likely would have had tons of questions or even blamed Spock and refused his assistance. Time was of the essence. Nero had to be stopped before more planets were destroyed. Spock Prime simply didn't have the time to get into those things.


Then again, Countdown technically isn't canon so no explanation is needed. However, this is an easy explanation for anything that seems to be inconsistent should Countdown be made canon in the future, as I hope it will be.

Last edited by Ketrick; February 13 2013 at 04:40 PM.
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Old February 13 2013, 04:43 PM   #43
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Spock's mindmeld also shows us Romulans without tattoos. The crew of the Narada must have had some reason to tattoo their faces, and the Countdown comic offers the most plausible explanation.

What I am more concerned about are Klingons with piercings!
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Old February 13 2013, 04:46 PM   #44
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
What I am more concerned about are Klingons with piercings!
Why concerned?
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Old February 13 2013, 04:51 PM   #45
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Re: Klingon augment virus/Into Darkness Klingons

SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
What I am more concerned about are Klingons with piercings!
Why concerned?
I don't really like the idea ... but maybe it won't look as silly as it sounds. Anyway ... Romulans with tattoos, Klingons with piercings ... what's next? Bolians with mohawks?
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